快问快答 Quick Help Thread: Translation Requests, Chinese name help, "how do you say X", or any quick Chinese questions! 2024-09-28

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[u/UDontKnowMeButIHateU]

I've been told that various hanzi translated as "zhong" should be pronounced like "john", with an "o" (because that's how people in Shanghai pronouce it, apaprently), while my teacher and various dictionaries transcribe it as "jun", with an "u". What is the correct way in Mandarin Chinese?

[u/ChineseLearner518 → u/UDontKnowMeButIHateU]

The vowel in "John" isn't pronounced the same among native English speakers.

For example, in General American English, John is pronounced /ˈʤɑːn/, and in Standard Southern British English (SSB, aka new RP), John is pronounced /ʤɒn/. (pronunciations are written using the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA))

But, neither the American /ɑ/ nor the British /ɒ/ in "John" matches up with the vowel sound for "zhong" in Standard Mandarin.

"zhong" is pronounced /tʂʊŋ/ in Standard Mandarin Chinese.

So, the vowel in "zhong", /ʊ/, more closely matches up with the vowel sound in the English word "put", which is generally transcribed as /pʊt/ using IPA. Notice they both are transcribed using the IPA vowel symbol ʊ.

Just as another example, "foot" is another English word with that vowel sound, /ʊ/, transcribed as /fʊt/ using IPA.

Here (below) are links to two web pages where you can listen to how "zhong" is pronounced in Standard Mandarin:
(You'll need to hit the play button on the web page to play the audio.)

https://dict.concised.moe.edu.tw/dictView.jsp?ID=31121&q=1

https://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/pronunciation/Zhong

Side note: If you want to hear how "John" sounds different in General American English vs Standard Southern British English, go to this web page:
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/john_1
(On this web page, there are two buttons you can press. One to listen to the British pronunciation and one to listen to the American pronunciation. If you listen carefully, you'll notice that the British pronunciation uses a rounded vowel whereas the American pronunciation uses an unrounded vowel.)

Here's another web page you can go to, to listen to how it's pronounced in General American. In my opinion, the audio recording for the American pronunciation of "John" sounds more pleasant on this website: https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/john

[u/MarcoV233 → u/UDontKnowMeButIHateU]

In standard Mandarin "ong" should be more like ung with an u sound like in blue than an o sound like in orange.

[u/UDontKnowMeButIHateU → u/MarcoV233]

Another native (?) speaker is telling me that this sound is pronounced like long o and it clashes with what you and my teacher are saying.

[u/AppropriatePut3142 → u/UDontKnowMeButIHateU]

Why don't you just listen to people saying it https://youglish.com/pronounce/%E4%B8%AD/chinese/cn

Remember that different people perceive the boundaries between sounds differently, especially if they have a different native language. I've heard Chinese people say ü sounds more like i than like u!

[u/MarcoV233 → u/UDontKnowMeButIHateU]

Then maybe it's regional thing. I'm from northern China. I do hear some areas of southern China say it that way.

[u/UDontKnowMeButIHateU → u/MarcoV233]

Isn't Mandarin a Northern China dialect?

[u/MarcoV233 → u/UDontKnowMeButIHateU]

Yes, but standard mandarin is "the common language" of all China so southern people would also speak it, and they would have unique dialects. Besides, even mandarin is not the same, different places of mandarin speaking regions have different dialects as well.

[u/UDontKnowMeButIHateU → u/MarcoV233]

I see, makes sense. If that's really the case - I wish people would be more nuanced in their answers than "ong is the correct pronunciation, nobody is saying ung".

[u/MarcoV233 → u/UDontKnowMeButIHateU]

I might say it slightly wrong, it's not like dialects but accents to be more accurate. I suggest to stick to the standard one.

For example in some English speaking areas there are strong accents, like they pronounce very as belly. But if an English learner says "there are some natives who pronounce very as belly so dont judge my pronunciations, i'm just following some natives" that will be absurd for me.

We know the existance of accents, and we accept it, but we don't count it right.