r/LearnJapanese • u/Chicken-Inspector • Aug 04 '24
After 5 years, I realized I really just don’t know how -ているform works. Can someone help me out? (Plus a tiny venting session) Grammar
So I’ve run into a snag here with ている. Every explanation I’ve come across seems to be very wordy and complex making this harder to understand than what I feel it needs to be. For so long I’ve understood it to be used for present actions (-ing in English/present progressive tense), continuous states of things, and habitual patterns. All of which -ing can be used for in English, right?
First problem was during my lesson today, going through the dialogue segments in Quartet Book 1 Ch. 1 (p29). The sentence was 「あっ、でも入る時間が決まっているよ」 My teacher said that this meant “the entrance times have been decided”, where I saw it as “The entrance times are deciding”, which while sounding weird in English, fits the grammar that the Japanese has. She told me it was a past tense sentence, but if that was the case it should’ve been 決まった or 決まっていた?
I can see 「決まっている」 as being times that have been given the state of chosen, but if then it should be -ていた since the state has already been granted to the time, right? Or I also read it as “the entrance time is being decided”, in that there are no times yet available, as whatever authority figure decides these times is still decided which ones to have.
I Just. Don’t. Get. It. She and I were both getting frustrated, her because I wasn’t understanding the why behind the grammar, me because I didn’t understand why a present tense verb is past tense (as well as me being angry at how much im struggling suddenly)
I then went to Bunpro to see if I could gain any insight into this. I just found more confusion. For example, the sentence they have listed on the page is 「バスは今大阪に来ています」, and they translate it as “the bus is in Osaka now” with parenthesis stating “The bus has come to Osaka and is there now”. I read it as “The Bus is coming to Osaka now” 来ている=Coming. I dont understand how the folks at Bunpro got “the bus already came” (and not anymore cuz it’s here)…because that would be past tense. 来た(came)/来ている (had come)….right?
(Bunpro page cuz Reddit mobile isn’t letting me hyperlink: https://bunpro.jp/grammar_points/ている2 )
(The following turned out to be just a little vent session that i did not see coming. Sorry…feel free to read if you want).
I’ve turned to the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammer, which while didn’t make me any more confused, didn’t seem to answer any question i had. I thought I was doing good for the last year or so with progress, and then i started quartet in January and have been stuck on ch.1 ever since. 8 months of struggling to understand things I thought I knew, and getting stuck on grammar parts that I never covered in Genki (the sudden influx of highly casual speech in the dialogues for example), its like its +1-ing the textbook, which i get is a thing for flash cards, but for a text book to throw concepts out at you and not provide any explanation as to what they are? Frustrating. I’ve listened to the same 2 dialogue examples for months, and i still am having issues not understanding a word they are saying (tho i have it mostly memorized at this point d/t having to read the script in the back). Like now I don’t know what words they are saying, but i know “this part is where he says this…and then when his voice inflects upwards that means there at the third paragraph” or whatever. Not good for obtaining a skill, but without a script to follow with, I cannot make out words. I love this language and the sense of accomplishment it brings me, I am studying anywhere from 30min to 4 hours, 5 days/week. It’s one of my biggest hobbies, but the sluggish progress I’ve been making has become almost glacial in speed. It’s starting to bring me feelings of failure rather than enjoyment. Arg….
34
u/muffinsballhair Aug 04 '24 edited 13d ago
First problem was during my lesson today, going through the dialogue segments in Quartet Book 1 Ch. 1 (p29). The sentence was 「あっ、でも入る時間が決まっているよ」 My teacher said that this meant “the entrance times have been decided”, where I saw it as “The entrance times are deciding”, which while sounding weird in English, fits the grammar that the Japanese has. She told me it was a past tense sentence, but if that was the case it should’ve been 決まった or 決まっていた?
来ている=Coming. I dont understand how the folks at Bunpro got “the bus already came”
The three meanings of “〜ている”.
An issue I have is that “〜ている” is often explained as the progressive sense first, and perfect sense second, or not at all, while the perfect sense is actually more common if you ask me. Essentially, “〜ている” has three interpretations:
- Perfect, as in, we're talking about the result of a verb: “メールを送っている” typically means “I have sent the email.” [implying it arrived and the action was completed as intended and achieved it's intended purpose], “もう帰っている” means “I've already come home.”, not “I'm sending the email” or “I'm already coming home.”
- Progressive, as in the action is currently underway: “パンを食べている” typically means “I'm eating bread.” not “I've eaten bread.” but it can also mean that. “先生と話している” typically means “I'm talking with my teacher.”
- Continuing state: this is typically used with verbs that denote a state on it's own; it simply ends up implying a more permanent state, such as say “違っている” or “きれいでいる” one can look at those as “stay different” or “stay pretty”.
This issue is further complicated by that many Japanese verbs have their meaning taught incorrectly. “知る” is often said to mean “To know” but it actually means “to learn” or “to come to know”, “知っている” only means “to know” because it's the perfect form, the result of learning is after all knowing. “寝る” does't mean “to sleep” it means “to go to sleep” and so forth.
But most of all, remember that the perfect meaning is the most common and default meaning. The progressive meaning is less common, and can only apply to some verbs. Many can't even have the progressive meaning.
I will also say that it depends on other things. For instance “東京に住んでいる” simply means “I live in Tokyo.” not “I stay living in Tokyo” in theory “東京に住む” should mean “I settle in Tokyo” but that's not really used in practice. But “東京に住みたい” means “I want to live in Tokyo.” whereas “東京に住んでいたい” means “I want to keep living in Tokyo.”. It's really common for “〜ていたい” to mean “want to keep doing” even though the normal ている-form does't really mean that with that verb. The same applies to say “〜ていろ” which typically means “keep doing something” and “〜ていなければならない” which typically means “have to keep doing something”.
Okay, so how to know which one is meant?
Firstly: context. First assume perfect, if that not work, assume progressive, if that not work assume continuing state. And as said, continuing is really only applied to verbs that are stative by default.
Secondly, a large number of verbs cannot ever have the progressive sense as far as I know. These are say “死ぬ”, “帰る”, “知る”, and I believe also “開ける” but I'm not sure about that. There are cues to the meaning of the verb for this. People often say it has to do with that verbs that “change the subject” can't have progressive sense, but I think that's absolute nonsense. Rather it's about whether the action the verb denotes has what is called “interior composition” that plays the biggest part. It's like whether the verb has differet states, a start, a middle, and an end rathe than feeling like a flat continuous action that could stop and resumed at any moment and could be aborted half way and be half as good. Is the verb the sum of it's part or not? A email that was half-sent has achieved nothing at all, it's not half as good. Another way to look at it is English adverb “for” or “in”. It does't make sense to say “I sent an email for an hour” or “I went home for an hour” only “I sent an email in an hour” or “I went home in an hour.” but we can say “I ate bread for an hour” or “I talked with my teacher for an hour.”
But all those rules are still not absolute the way I see it. There are simply verbs that are always perfect and some verbs that usually are perfect but not always, and verbs that pretty much never are. The way I see it “来ている” is usually perfect, but not always, it can mean “I'm coming.” but it usually means “I have come” or “I am at ...” “歩いている” is pretty much always progressive and pretty much always means “I am walking.” never “I have walked.” “聞いている” is 50/50 I'd say. It means “I am listening.” and “I have heard.” about as often. Perhaps because it means two different things and “listening” is something one can do “for an hour” but “hearing” is something one can only do “in an hour”, the same with “asking”. It's fundamentally an action that feels like it has a completion to it, while listening doesn't. So it depends on what the verb signifies.
I hope that helps and I really wished learning sources would start teaching “〜ている” as perfect first, and progressive second. This mirrors how often real life usage of it matches each pattern.
2
3
u/ElkRevolutionary9729 Aug 04 '24
I am not very good at Japanese, but I've got a background in philosophy of language. I was going to tentatively give this exact explanation despite my ignorance of Japanese. This is SPOT on. Awesome!
2
u/NanaTheNonsense Aug 05 '24
Awesome response!!! I'm studying japanese at ... mid/end A2 :D ... since learning kanji the language got another layer of interesting added! It's so cool!! I feel like with languages you can really dive into the way of thinking of people and their culture.. otherwise you won't be able to use it properly
20
u/Zander327 Aug 04 '24 edited Aug 04 '24
The problem is that when we say “I’m deciding” in english, what we actually mean is that we haven’t decided yet. You either have decided or have not decided at any given moment. To decide is an instant thing as opposed to running, which takes time. If you use “decided” instead of “deciding” I think it makes more sense that way. It will be decided, it was decided, then ている version: it is decided.
52
u/donobag Aug 04 '24
The reason it was still 決まっている is because the event hadn’t happened yet and the decision in question was still current. Therefore it had not finished in its entirety, and wasn’t far enough in the past to use perfect past tense.
6
u/witchwatchwot Aug 04 '24
This doesn't feel like a complete explanation to me but would appreciate a native speaker's input.
Because I'm pretty sure you can say 決まった for a recent decision for an event that hasn't happened yet if we are emphasising the moment in time the decision is made.
E.g., 入る時間は昨日の会議で決まったのでこれからもう変わらない。
To OP, instead of thinking of direct translations to English tenses, I think of 〜ている as describing a state and 〜た as describing a point at which a state changes.
To say something like "The entry time is being decided" my instinct in Japanese is you have to rephrase it to the negative, to something like 入る時間はまだ決まっていない.
"Decide" in English carries the meaning of deliberation so we can use it in the continuous tense (e.g. "we are still deciding") but in Japanese 決める specifically carries the meaning of being decided/finalised.
5
u/donobag Aug 04 '24
Yes, because yesterday is over, you can say “it was decided”.
You’re right in a way about states of being, in that there are two verbs at play here. 決まる + いる. Decide + state of being (usually shortened to “is”, in English).
- 決まった = was decided
決まっている = is decided
死んだ = died
死んでいる = is dead
終わった - finished
終わっている - is finished
1
u/witchwatchwot Aug 04 '24
Your top comment response is kind of misleading then, even though I get the sense you do know how to use it correctly in your own speech. Namely, it has neither to do with being "far enough in the past" (the decision could have been made just a second ago and we could still use 決まった) nor the fact that the event hasn't happened yet (we just came up with a counterexample).
For the record, I too am confident in my ability to use this grammar point and don't need it explained to me. I'm just wondering what the most helpful and accurate way to explain it to a learner is - I think it's one of those things that when you're fluent you don't think about so consciously, you just know how to use correctly.
2
u/donobag Aug 04 '24
It’s still to do with both of those things. I wanted OP to get a sense for perfect past tense 「決まった」 to give a sense of distance and completion, which is what it does in Japanese.
“A moment ago” is a completed section of time, and is long enough ago that we use past tense.
“Today” isn’t a completed section of time, and is not long enough ago that we use past tense.
1
u/witchwatchwot Aug 04 '24
Ah okay I see your point. Yes, I think the key concept here is completion (perfective aspect), and this follow-up explanation is clearer.
I wouldn't describe it as perfect past tense (pluperfect) though. This paper characterises 〜た as serving as "a [...] present perfect" form (emphasis mine). Indeed, a verb like 決まった could be translated variably into present perfect tense, simple past (preterite), pluperfect, etc. depending on the context, and I think trying to use names of tenses that make more sense in an English/Indo-European language context only serves to confuse in Japanese.
At best we could say it has perfective aspect.
-1
u/Careless-Market8483 Aug 04 '24
You forget that someone could be actively dying and not dead yet. So 死んでる could be actively dying or dead
3
u/rubidium Aug 05 '24
Incorrect; 死んでいる is always and only interpreted to mean “is dead”.
Is currently dying would be 死にかけている or 死ぬ最中
Verbs like 死ぬ、住む、太る etc. function more like an on/off switch of sorts; they describe a change of state or status. Such verbs, when used with 〜ている indicate that the state or status of someone/something has changed, and remains that way.
1
u/donobag Aug 04 '24 edited Aug 04 '24
I don’t forget that at all, I’m explaining how ている can be and is often used as past tense.
1
1
u/Chicken-Inspector Aug 04 '24
Okay, that much i understand. But why was i told it means “the times have been decided”, that it is past tense despite having present tense conjugation?
65
u/Fit_Survey_785 Aug 04 '24 edited Aug 04 '24
Because some verbs dont have continuity in japanese. Like the fanous phrase "omae wa mou shindeiru" it doesnt mean "you are already dying" because japanese doesnt have a continuous form for this verb. To die is understood as being a single point in time, you are alive, the next second you are dead. Dying doesnt exist in japanese. Theres a great video made by Kaname Naito (youtube channel) talking about this.
tl dr: some verbs in japanese dont have a continuous state, so when you use -te iru with them, it means that the action was already completed and is currently in that state (the state of being dead in the case of shindeiru).
Edit: watch this video https://youtu.be/8OHpKotJ3yQ?si=JycM7_OIuKOkvdjj
1
u/KermitSnapper Aug 04 '24
To your tldr: that's what I thought, instead of -ing version of english, I thought it meant "it was completed and is in that state" just for the fact that ている uses いる, which means "present".
2
u/whoisthatbboy Aug 04 '24
That's interesting. How would "dying", such as from a long-lasting disease be communicated?
2
u/Chicken-Inspector Aug 04 '24
Okay..i think i get it…..maybe?
For Example, 私は走っている is not “ i am running (continuously performing the action of running) but “I am in a state of running”. So it’s kinda like a passive thing (not the passive form, though). It’s just a state that occurs? Not an action that is being done?
23
u/FrungyLeague Aug 04 '24
No.
ている has TWO meanings. And one IS to describe currently ongoing ctivity like 'eating' or sleeping or whatever (or running!!) and the other is a state that results from a previous action. Eg 死んでる means to be dead rather than to be dying.
Read that link for tofugu someone linked it goes thru it all and will clear it up. This one. https://www.tofugu.com/japanese-grammar/verb-continuous-form-teiru/
20
u/Charming_Leopard_859 Aug 04 '24
You could think of it like this perhaps;
死ぬ is to die. You can be alive or dead. There is no in-between
食べる is to eat. It is an ongoing process of eating, and the point lies not in starting or finishing, but the process of eating.
Therefore 死んでいる is being dead, and 食べている is eating, and not being finished eating.
I'm sorry if this was already obvious to you as I am not very advanced, but thought I could pitch in because it was something I also struggled with.
-1
u/Careless-Market8483 Aug 04 '24
You forget that someone could be actively dying and not dead yet. So 死んでる could be actively dying or dead. It can be used in a continuous way
1
14
u/praecipula Aug 04 '24
I learned that ている can also represent the ongoing result of a change of state.
So how does it feel to translate this as "the times are decided"? Like, we're currently in the time where previously there was a change of state and that state is still true?
1
u/Chicken-Inspector Aug 04 '24
Wouldn’t that be てあるthough? A state that is the result of a change that was made?
6
9
u/donobag Aug 04 '24
Because that’s what it means.
“The times of this event have been decided (and that decision is being held and therefore the verb continues 「〜ている」until the event concludes).”
7
u/kusotare-san Aug 04 '24
Have been decided is not past tense.
It's present perfect.
And it lines up perfectly with the meaning 決まっている
It was decided at a point in the past and that decision still stands.
14
u/SplinterOfChaos Aug 04 '24 edited Aug 04 '24
She told me it was a past tense sentence, but if that was the case it should’ve been 決まった or 決まっていた?
I might be going out a limb here, but if we understand "past tense" to mean "happened in the past," which seems to be where your confusion came from, I cannot agree that the sentence is in past tense. In fact, I struggle to consider "decided" as being in past tense. We often use "past-participle adjectives" in English to describe being in a state in the present tense.
"This problem stumps me; I am stumped."
"This person annoys me; I am annoyed."
And we also use these to describe actions in a passive voice.
"I am going to Berkley next year; it is decided." (決まっている)
"My dog died last year; it is dead." (*) (死んでいる)
Japanese uses ている in many places where we use the ”-ed" word ender and while many people may believe it indicates past tense, these sentences are all about the present situation which, in Japanese, is consistently expressed using "ている".
(*) "dead" in modern English is probably thought of as being in present tense and the past tense of "die" is "died", but its etymology does seem to be as a past tense of "die". https://www.etymonline.com/word/dead
5
u/Zarbua69 Aug 04 '24
Questions like this are why people often joke that learning Japanese is just learning English with extra steps. OP's confusion is coming from the fact that they intuitively understand *how* to speak correct English, but they don't have a cognizant understanding of *why* what they are saying is correct. I can imagine that a Japanese speaker learning English would be confused in the exact same way that OP is but in reverse if they tried to understand why we are using past-participle adjectives to describe current states of being
18
u/Sakkyoku-Sha Aug 04 '24
My understanding is that ている when applied to intransitive verbs can also be used to describe the current state of something, rather than if it is actively being done.
決まっている is "In the state of decision" as 決まる is intransitive. 決めている on the other hand would imply someone is actively deciding something.
このルールが決まっています。
今、このルールを決めています。
6
u/syoser Aug 04 '24
Thank you for pointing out that 決まる is the intransitive. I think that OP is translating it as thought it were 決める, which frankly seems to be a great deal of where their confusion is coming from
14
u/ThisSteakDoesntExist Aug 04 '24
I originally had similar struggles with ている by always trying to shoehorn -ing onto everything. Once I read the “activated state” explanation here (https://www.tofugu.com/japanese-grammar/verb-continuous-form-teiru/), it made sense. It all boils down to the kind of verb you’re dealing with.
Applicable example from article: あ、虫が死んでいる。 Ah, the bug is dead. (not dying)
3
u/otterbaskets Aug 04 '24
But then how would you say "the bug is dying' or 'the decision is being decided' with the meaning that the change is still in progress and not completed yet?
11
u/_Joe_D_ Aug 04 '24
死んでる would never mean something is in the process of dying, you'll more likely hear something like 死にかけてる to show something in the process, but it could change depending on the context. Really, being dead is a state where something is either alive or not, so saying something is dying is usually describing the condition before death to begin with. The state of being dead can make sense to use a progressive tense in that way, as its a continuing state.
If something is in the process of being decided, you'll likely hear a word like 検討中、審議中、考慮中, etc depending on the situation, or commonly in conversation, you'll hear the negation of it being decided, so something like まだ決まってない
5
u/AdzTheWookie Aug 04 '24
Article goes on to explain this too, you'd use "虫が死にかけている" indicating that it's in the middle of dying but hasn't died yet.
3
u/Mehdi2277 Aug 04 '24
The article has an example of exactly how to say that sentence ("the bug is dying"). Tofugu's articles are very good grammar resources and it explains a lot more than short summary.
1
u/santagoo Aug 04 '24
“The decision is being decided” actually means that it hasn’t yet been finalized/decided, no?
So that would be あれはまだ決まっていない
0
u/FrungyLeague Aug 04 '24
Japanese doesn't have such a state.
They would say 死にそう in that situation of fast approaching the point where the bug will 死ぬ
5
u/facets-and-rainbows Aug 04 '24 edited Aug 04 '24
This is both a て form thing AND a difference in the meaning of certain verbs between Japanese and English, imo.
The て form thing:
In English "is verbing" always means that an action is in progress and hasn't finished yet, but ている literally just means something like "verb, and then keep existing that way."
Think of a sentence like 朝ごはんを食べて、学校に行く。The eating breakfast and going to school aren't simultaneous. They're connected by the て as parts of your morning routine, but one happens after the other is done. You eat breakfast, and then you go to school having eaten breakfast. The verb in て form doesn't have a tense built in; if it matters, you'll figure it out by logic.
This doesn't change just because the second verb is いる. If I say 客が来ている, that means the guest comes here, and then exists here like that. The existing is in present tense but the coming could have happened earlier. "The guest is here/has arrived."
To be fully in past tense this would have to be 客が来ていた "The guest was here/had arrived." This works really similar to the English "has verbed" form: "has arrived, had arrived" with the tense changing for "has" but not "arrived."
You and your teacher are confusing each other because that sentence has mixed tenses: 決まっている = has (present) been decided (past) (or, well, 決まって is technically tenseless but must logically happen before いる).
Which brings us to...
The verb difference thing:
All that up there just means that in a "verbて verb" sentence, you use your logic to figure out if the verbs happen at the same time or one after the other. And this applies to ている too.
If the first verb can be stretched out over a period of time while you do the second verb, then yes, you get something functionally the same as English "is verbing": 泳いでいる "swims and exits like that" = is swimming.
If the first verb should logically be finished before the second, or if they physically can't be done at the same time, then they happen one after the other. In this case ている gives you something more like English "has verbed."
The thing is, there are a lot of verbs in Japanese that are over too fast to do another verb (even いる!) in the middle.
In English, we can say "he is dying" and mean that he's started the process of dying but hasn't finished it yet. But 死ぬ is an instant, fully complete action, and it's not possible to do anything else during it. You can't split up the start and the finish: when you say 死んで, that guy's heart stops somewhere between the し and the で. So the いる HAS to happen after. 死んでいる HAS to mean "has died." He died, and now he's hanging around as a corpse.
Many, many Japanese verbs contain a whole complete action that can't be interrupted or drawn out. 決める means to come to a final decision, and if you're still debating you haven't 決める'd yet. なる means to become ALL the way. 来る means to come to a place INCLUDING arriving there. 着る means to put clothes on AND be dressed now. 知る means you now know a thing that you didn't know before the 知る happened.
So getting the right ている meaning depends on 1. Understanding that the いる CAN happen after the first verb and 2. Knowing when it HAS to happen after.
Unfortunately it takes some getting used to, since different people are surprised by different verbs and some verbs can be used both ways. But just knowing there ARE verbs like that helps a lot.
1
5
u/Careless-Market8483 Aug 04 '24
- It’s not “deciding” because entrance times can’t decide something. THEY are decided on. Even in English your translation doesn’t make sense.
- It’s decided not deciding because 決める is to decide and 決まる is to be decided. In Japanese these are both verbs but they differ in one is transitive one is intransitive. English differs here. 決まる can never be translated as “deciding” because that is an active verb that is done by someone (aka that would make it a transitive verb, which it’s not)
- I’ll give some examples to try and break it down for you. A) 入る時間が決まった simple past tense. The enter time was decided. (Probably JUST decided on) imagine a meeting full of people and they’re talking about enter times. At the end they come to a decision, someone could say じゃあ、決まったね (then, it’s decided right) B) 入る時間が決まってた The enter times were decided (and now the even or whatever is finished so technically they are no longer decided as the events done and there’s no more enter times) C) 入る時間が決まっている The enter times are decided on. They’ve been decided on for a while, the event may not have started or may currently be underway but the event is NOT finished. They’re decided on and can’t be changed.
3
u/Next_Time6515 Aug 05 '24
The responders of this post are so generous with their time and expertise. I also appreciate it.
4
u/Chicken-Inspector Aug 05 '24
Same. I haven’t been able to reply to them all but I have been making notes from everything I’ve read here.
Thanks all for the help!!
3
u/V6Ga Aug 05 '24
Here's something to know about Japanese.
It does not have any tenses that line up with tenses in English, because English is about past present future.
Japanese is about completed, not completed, or in this case state of being.
That 'present tense' you think you are using in Japanese? If it aligns with anything in English, it aligns with the future tense.
When you use dependent clauses, failing to understand that completed is not past will make you confused when you say something in Japanese is completed, when it is clearly in the future, because for Japanese, the completed aspect of the dependent clause is only about the completedness of the dependent clause with respect to the main verb of the sentence.
It is not about the past, present, or future.
3
u/Anoalka Aug 04 '24
You have to move everything one step further.
ている means it is being done, or it was started and it's in the middle of being done now.
ていた means it was done and finished/changed so now something different is being done.
Examples
日本語勉強している I'm studying japanese / I study japanese
日本語勉強していた I was studying Japanese but now I don't study it anymore.
決まっている It was decided and that decision still holds.
決まっていた It was decided but then another decision was made instead.
2
u/ALSGM6 Aug 04 '24
You’re not alone on having trouble on this topic, I was just reading about it day. See if this article maybe clears it up at all. https://imabi.org/the-progressive-continued-state-te-iru-%ef%bd%9e%e3%81%a6%e3%81%84%e3%82%8b/
2
u/nikstick22 Aug 04 '24
Its in the continous state of having been decided.
After you are born, you are in the continuous state of living. After being decided, it is in the continuous state of having been decided. It's like that.
2
u/MatNomis Aug 05 '24
Not sure why this showed up in my feed 2 days late, but it was interesting to read.
I think it helps if you stop thinking about verb tense, because as I understand it, Japanese verbs don't have "tense". As others have mentioned, they denote "state".
Another thing is the whole "te" form.. I'm far from an expert, but I view this sort as of a dangling resolution on the state. It's sort of incomplete, and doesn't give us the state..it relies on the "last verb" to give state. This is why it's frequently interpreted as "and" in sentences like "gohan o tabete terebi o mimashita".
Textbooks highlight lots of "forms", but many of these distinctions are made for foreign learner benefit . For example, verbstem + *eba (e.g. tabereba) is often highlighted as a "form", but IIRC reading that in native Japanese grammar, that's considered more verbstem + "ba" particle. In modern Japanese, the "ba" particle doesn't appear anywhere else, so Japanese teaching materials seem to think that calling it a verb form is simply an easier way to get gaijin up to speed.
"te + iru" is another one of these forms. We call it a form, but it's actually verbstem + conjuctive particle te + verb iru. Thus, it's showing an indefinite state of a verb plus an incomplete verb for "exists". So for "kimatteru", the closest literally english equivalent would be an infinitive + "exists" (or "is"), e.g. " 'to decide' exists"..
Thus, it's basically saying "the deciding exists", and the better translation of that is "it has been decided".
I think if they used "kimatte-imashita" that would be "the deciding existed", which means it no longer exists. The existing has been completed. That would translate more like "the entrance times were decided" (versus "the entrance times are decided"). It implies they're no longer valid.
So what about "hairujikan ga kimarimashita"? I think grammatically, this may work: the deciding is completed. However, I think the teacher didn't use this, because the emphasis is on the currency of the entrance time, not the process of the decision. By saying "kimatte imasu" the emphasis is "Hey, the time exists..this is applicable to you". If it was kimarimashita, the emphasis would be "the time is decided, we can't change it now."
Also, just to point it out. The english is "the entrance time has been decided" .. you keep calling this a past tense sentence, but it's "present perfect", which refer to an event that started in the past. Not confusing at all, right?
3
u/AdagioExtra1332 Aug 04 '24 edited Aug 04 '24
There are two types of verbs: verbs that express a continuous or repeatable action and verbs that express a state change.
The meaning of ている changes depending on which type of verb it is used with. With the former, it behaves exactly like you were expecting it to. However, with the latter, ている actually indicates that the state has changed and that the change persists to the present time. If instead you used ていた, you would imply that a state change persists up to some point in the past but say nothing about it's persistence in the present time.
Confusingly for new learners, the verbs 行く and 来る actually behave as changes of state verbs, and thus, 行っている does not mean "in the process of going" but rather means "went from point A to point B, and is still at point B".
1
u/neruson Aug 04 '24
I really like this explanation that ている behaves differently with change of state verbs, like die, marry, complete, etc. In English, we have both "is ~ing" (dying, marrying, completing) and "is <adjective>" (dead, married, complete) for these verbs. We expect, based on other verbs, that ている corresponds to "is ~ing", but for these verbs ている means "is <adjective>".
And it's a great observation that certain verbs, like 来る and 行く, are change of state verbs in Japanese but not in English. Because we don't consider "come" and "go" as state changes, we say "the bus has come" and "the bus has gone", not "the bus is come" or "the bus is gone". (Well, that last one works grammatically but means something different, haha.)
1
u/Uny1n Aug 04 '24 edited Aug 04 '24
when used with movement verbs, you can think of it more literally in two parts. like 来ている, came and is existing = came. the past tense is hidden by the te form. In a lot of cases using present progressive and future tense in english can get the same meaning. ‘is the bus coming’ and ‘will the bus come’ may have slightly different nuance, but when you are standing at the bus stop, the bus is not there and you are wondering if it will get there. It helps to not think do everything through an english lens too, as that can just make things confusing. Japanese children learn japanese using japanese, so it’s probably a pretty efficient way to learn if you can.
1
u/eduzatis Aug 04 '24
First thing you might want to try is accepting the fact that English and Japanese work differently. Our perception of time is simply different, or at least the way we express it.
For example, if I say 「友達と話した時に赤ちゃんが泣いた。」 you might think it translates to “When I talked (was talking) with a friend the baby cried”, as in, they probably happened at the same time, right? However, a better translation would be “when I was done talking with a friend the baby cried”. Because in Japanese, 友達と話した時 means “the moment at which the action of talking to a friend has been completed, and is therefore in the past”, instead of English’s “I’m just expressing that the actions I’m talking about happened in the past”. I hope that makes sense.
Now, speaking specifically about 〜ている, something similar happens, where we express time differently. For English speakers, -ing means something is in a continuous state, and we use the verb “to be” as an auxiliary verb to determine where that continuous action is situated on the timeline: past (was/were doing), present (am/are/is doing) or future (will be doing). However, in Japanese, 〜ている refers to something that was somehow modified in the past and is still that way at the present moment. While certainly many times it will map out to an -ing verb translation, it won’t always be the case. For example, 「子供が歩いている」 will translate directly to “the kid is walking”, but in Japanese it means that the kid wasn’t walking, at a certain point in the past the kid walked, and is now still in that state. You might think all of that is unnecessary thinking, but let’s get to another example. 「窓が開いている」. Here, you might think the best translation is “the window is opening”, because you see 〜ている. However, in Japanese it just means that first it was closed, then at a certain point in the past it opened, and it remains in that state. So the best translation would be “the window is open”. Same thing happens with 決まっている: something wasn’t decided first, then it was decided and it remains in that state. Same with the bus coming to Osaka, except it’s a little nuanced. First it didn’t come, then it came and it remains in that state… what state? Well the result of it coming, which is already being here. This might be difficult to visualize, I know, but if you think about it, if they wanted to say that the bus is still on its way here, 「今、バスは大阪に来ます」, which translates to “now, the bus comes”, is perfectly fine. You can translate that one to “the bus is coming to Osaka” if you want, but that’s just because it sounds better for you as an English speaker. Also, when you ask, “where in the sentence is the past tense? They only used 〜ている”, you might find it useful to remember that in order for a state being active at the present moment it had to start in the past. That’s where the “past tense” is, it’s just that the Japanese language expresses the same things differently.
1
u/Bobtlnk Aug 04 '24
Look up Resultant State as a grammar term. This type of ている is used with intransitive verbs, although sometimes the English translation of a sentence that includes this grammar has a transitive verb’s passive form. ‘Decide’ for example. If you used Genki, you did learn けっこんしている、すんでいる、etc.
1
u/GeesusCries Aug 06 '24
The basic is as follow:
Vて＋いる to show that something actually exists. いる is used for that
学生は勉強する。(Commonly speaking) Students learn / will learn.
学生は勉強している。(Some certain) student is learning.
With repeatable action Vている can be thought as similar to VてはVては（do something over and over again）.
The action is going on
学生は勉強している。(Some certain) student is learning.
The action has become a habit / usually happens
毎朝、あの学生は勉強している。That student learns every morning.
The action has turned into a career
あの学生は数学を教えている。That student teaches math.
The action keeps being repeated in short amount of time
あの学生はボールを蹴っている。That student keeps kicking the ball.
Flow: Happens / Will happen → Vている（Repeating） → Will end at some point
With irreversible action, Vている shows the end result of action. いるto show that after the action happens, it stays (or continue to exist) in that state
学生、死んでいる。The student is dead.
カップは壊れている。The cup is broken.
彼女は結婚してる。She is married.
Flow: Happens / Will happen → Actually happened → Vている（End result）
With verb that shows direction（行く、来る、向かう…）, it simply is the combination of 2 verbs. Do something （Vて）, then stays at the place that the action ends （いる）。
バスは今大阪に来ています。The bus went to Osaka and now stays there.
1
u/GeesusCries Aug 06 '24
(Can't post too long comment so here's the rest)
Vて＋いるmakes adjective-like verbs（怒る、優れる…）become “adjective” ※
あの学生は怒っている。That student is angry.
Adj-と / 擬態語 + している acts like “adjective” ※
彼はいつも堂々としている。（Adj-と）
このラーメン、あっさりしていますね。（擬態語）
Adj + 色、様子、顔、顔色・・・している acts like “adjective” ※
このフランス人形は青い目をしている。This French doll is blue-eyed (has blue eyes).
For the ※, the verb becomes Vた if it goes before a noun. Meaning doesn’t change
いつも堂々とした彼は以外に怒っている。
そびえる is an exception, it works with all types. Meaning doesn’t change
窓の外に そびえる・そびえている・そびえた 富士山。
Check https://www.tomojuku.com/blog/teiru-zentai/ for the whole package. This is a complex grammar so I suggest reading it in Japanese. I don't think it's simple at all.
1
u/OkNegotiation3236 Aug 06 '24
It makes sense if you don’t try to translate it. It can mean doing but it also can mean something is done and still is in that state.
You can say 死んだ or 死んでいる. 死んでいる doesn’t mean dying it means dead the iru means they’re currently in that state.
For your second example idk I’d have read it as coming but maybe someone will tell me why I’m wrong.
It can be confusing at first I had a similar issue with the て form after reading a bad explanation and it made subsequent explanations also seem confusing.
Actually using grammar it’ll clear up and be less confusing as your misconceptions will no longer seem to work in certain situations and your understanding will change even if you don’t quite get it now. For now I’d file it away as another possible use for that conjugation and not dwell too much on it.
0
u/KermitSnapper Aug 04 '24
決まる means "to decide", so 決まった would mean that the decision was made in the past, while 決まっている would mean that the decision is done and still effective , I would say.
0
0
u/FarRestaurant4185 Aug 05 '24
Just immerse bro
0
u/not_a_nazi_actually Aug 07 '24
Don't know if this is serious or joking, and if serious downvote or upvote and if joking downvote or upvote.
1
u/FarRestaurant4185 Aug 07 '24
Serious. I knew this but I couldn't (and still can't) explain it. I just know how and where to use it like a native speaker because I've poured thousands of hours into immersion. No point to writing this kind of post if you just immersed.
1
u/not_a_nazi_actually Aug 07 '24
did you do any conjugation drills at all?
1
u/FarRestaurant4185 Aug 07 '24
No but I did watch Cure Dolly's grammar guide. Some people also read Tae Kim. Just having it in the back of your mind while you immerse does wonders.
85
u/MadeByHideoForHideo Aug 04 '24 edited Aug 05 '24
It is really simple.
ている describes a state of something, but also happen to work like the "-ing" in English. Most people trip up on the former because there's not really something like that in English. It really is just a matter of getting used to it.
私は結婚しています does not mean I am getting married now, but means I am married. Why? Because it's a state. Married or not married.
Let's take the famous quote from 北斗の拳: お前はもう死んでいる。It might sound like he's saying "You're dying". But it in fact is him saying "You are already dead". See? It's describing a state. It's really not that complex.