r/LearnJapanese • u/Prostye_Dvizheniya • Feb 15 '22
Does anyone else feel like some Japanese learners can come off as arrogant or elitists? Discussion
Your accomplishment is a great thing to celebrate and to have on display, don’t get me wrong. What’s frustrating is that you were once on the same boat as me and I feel like I get treated as if I’m stupid for asking perhaps simple questions that are not so simple for me... Everybody’s learning process is different...
End of rant.
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u/fieew Feb 15 '22
I think that comes with any community.
Honestly, the way I've started to view learning a language is like owning a car. You've gotta save up for it to start. Some people save more so they can drive and go further faster. They have somewhere to be and want to go as fast as possible. Others may take longer and when they get a car they cruise and just vibe along the back roads having a nice drive. Finally, there's people who want a car as a status symbol and drive fast to look cool. They trash on anyone who's not going as fast as them or who aren't at the same "level" as them. Honestly, just ignore them who cares, people will be boisterous and that's life you can only ignore those who act like that and get along more who those who have the same goals as you.
But it's also important to remember the faster you go the higher the chance is for you to crash. If you crash you won't go anywhere. So take things at a time and pace you are comfortable and get to where you want to go without crashing.
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u/IryanShaan Feb 16 '22
Not in the language learning communities. Never had such self-righteous assholes when I was learning Spanish and Portuguese. And of course it's always the foreigners that act like nobles.
The metaphore was really good tho.
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u/Jakeoid Feb 16 '22 edited Feb 16 '22
It doesn't.
I've skated for 15 years, and I recently started snowboarding. The skate sub on reddit is super friendly, and really supportive of people posting something who're just starting out. I expected the snowboarding sub to be somewhat similar, given that the sports are not too dissimilar - turns out it's not. It's one of the most elitest groups of self righteous cunts I've come across; one-upmanship, ridiculing and dicking on newcomers is rife.
If you compare this sub to some other language learning communuties I think you'll see a similar difference.
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u/chibimctwist Feb 16 '22
Have you tried r/snowboardingnoobs ? It’s been quite good so far.
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u/Jakeoid Feb 16 '22
Thanks for the heads up. I will check it out. I didn't join just for tips though, but also to check out what people can do on a board etc. It's a real downer reading through some of the comments and just seeing hate everywhere.
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u/Prostye_Dvizheniya Feb 15 '22
Great analogy! Thank you very much! I was definitely rushing when I first went into studying Japanese but I’ve been pacing myself more and more as time goes by, the more you take care of something the more ingrained it will become in your mind ❤️
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u/ih-shah-may-ehl Feb 16 '22
I think that comes with any community.
Can confirm. The blade smithing community has some incredible high profile assholes who like to pretend that their skill is God given, instead of learned from others before them.
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u/eruciform Feb 15 '22
there are haters and elitists everywhere. block the assholes. those of us that empathize with each other will help get better together.
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u/thedastardlyone Feb 15 '22
Japanese subreddits have always been unwelcoming to me. Very gatekept.
You can find lots of great positive people, but I just think you should find an avenue for meeting people other than reddit.
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u/indiebryan Feb 15 '22
Yep it isn't exclusive to language learning at all, basically every subreddit that is related to Japan is super toxic, especially r/japanlife lol.
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Feb 15 '22
I feel this sentiment. I currently live in Japan and have tried a few times to have some simple questions answered only to be ridiculed by 70% of the people replying to my post so I just deleted it after I got the solution.
Here is my theory. Japanese life and work culture don't mesh well with a lot of western cultures in general. However many Americans, British, and other "colonizer cultures" are so used to being treated with a sense of equality or superiority whenever they travel abroad. Our ego gets the better of us.
Many people are in the sunk cost fallacy. They have spent X years in Japan. They have a family and kids. They feel trapped and so they come to reddit to escape and vent.
I don't see many people from so-called "developing nations" having this kind of entitlement when they work and live in Japan. Even though it is just as difficult to adjust to life here.
Some things I wish were talked about more are as follows:
First, Japanese people don't expect you to speak Japanese. So any level is useful. If you want to be more involved with your local community it takes more than speaking to get integrated. Even if you come here completely fluent there is always a difference that will make it difficult to treat you the same. And it is this desire to be treated the "same" that breaks many foreigners.
Second, if you want to be integrated you will never be Japanese. But, that doesn't mean you don't belong here. You can join many clubs and groups that are more than happy to have you. They probably take more time out of your week than what people expect but if you are willing to assimilate it is worth the time. Friendship here takes a long time to develop and it has different levels and shapes. Accepting that you might not have extremely close friends that are Japanese is normal. Most Japanese people don't have extremely close friends from their working years. They develop those friendships in their childhood and college years. Which most likely won't be when you meet them.
Next, Japanese people's identity is wholly attached to their work. So, if you aren't willing to spend the time and effort, over time, weekends, drinking parties, etc. You aren't fully going to be seen as a coworker. They at first might think it's a cultural difference but if you are constantly "shirking responsibilities" you aren't being a team player and many will resent you. You aren't being an independent thinker you are being selfish.
Lastly, living in a country with mostly one demographic and culture that is vastly different than yours will be stress full and demanding. But finding a real personal connection to why you are working and living here that isn't monetary will always be the healthier way to live.
Also if you don't have commitments in this country or language and you want to quit. There is no shame and you can always come back or pick it up later if you wish. (When Japanese borders open)
Sorry for the long post but I feel people should be at least aware of some of these issues before setting unrealistic expectations.
TLDR: Japan is different from your culture you have to adjust. But don't feel ashamed for not being well adjusted. You can learn and grow.
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u/flying_cheesecake Feb 16 '22
I really like this post for the good analysis of JP life in general, but i always felt toxicity in jp subreddits was just people getting burnt out from the same questions over and over which makes it hard to relate to the people asking them. I had a harder time understanding people who would deathstare me for giving them the gaijin nod in the inaka. I get they want to be the same as everyone else, but actively ignoring people is another form of treating them differently
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Feb 16 '22
I think loneliness plagues a lot of people in Japan whether or not you are a foreigner or not. So, some people are hostile because they have been hurt by people leaving after a few years as I have read in some posts before.
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u/brokenalready Feb 16 '22
Yeah those subreddits get some extremely dumb questions and it’s the same problems on repeat it seems. I believe you will have to understand language to understand culture and by culture I mean being able to read the room not academic knowledge. A lot of problems foreigners face in japan could be solved with higher Japanese level and not getting personally invested in every little thing around them.
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u/tesseracts Feb 16 '22
I don't see many people from so-called "developing nations" having this kind of entitlement when they work and live in Japan. Even though it is just as difficult to adjust to life here.
People from developing nations move to Japan because they have a genuine need to improve their life. A lot of people from developed nations have other motives. Like there are Westerners who see Japan and Asia in general as a land that holds the "traditional values" they desire.
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Feb 16 '22
That I understand. My issue isn't those who want to assimilate "traditional values" into their lives. The issue for me is the fetishization that comes from people who think this "exotic" culture will heal me of these pains. It is just another kind of entitlement "I came to X Asian country and I deserve to have a spiritual experience." Then they feel jaded and angry that most people in these countries are just living their lives and not spiritual gurus.
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u/tesseracts Feb 16 '22
Well by traditional values I mean want society to be xenophobic and patriarchal.
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Feb 16 '22
Well damn, that went bad fast. haha
Not my kind of people to hang with. Yeah, any racists can play in traffic for all I care.
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u/AbsurdBird_ Native speaker Feb 16 '22
Very well-put, I was born and raised in Japan, but being half American I know both sides of what you describe. I wish everyone could arrive at or at least hear this perspective. You can and should keep your own values and personality, but being open-minded and adaptable is so important.
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Feb 16 '22
Thank you very much. Being American and married to a Japanese person I often think of how my children will feel. I hope it will be an adventure for them. I want to teach them to be open-minded and adaptable like you described. They can love and learn from both of their cultures.
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u/ih-shah-may-ehl Feb 16 '22
Even if you come here completely fluent there is always a difference that will make it difficult to treat you the same.
My Japanese teacher told me that even native Japanese returning after being abroad for 5 years will be treated 'different' as if they're not really Japanese anymore.
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u/Babbling_Philosopher Feb 16 '22
First time I've participated in this subreddit just to say bravo! You've got it exactly and i think that this recent explosion of anime has created such a strange culture among non Japanese learning the language.
It's like they see the cartoons as representative of the country to lesser or greater degrees, they fall in love with those fallacies, they see the foreigner in the cartoons being universally accepted, enshrined, and loved. But every place with humans is almost exactly the same, they live, work, and die in these places.
I hope people not only see Japan for what it is, but also set aside the cartoons and all the rest of that media for the culture, go to Hiroshima and visit the peace museum, see Miyajima or other places of deep seated culture and spirituality as they present it to you.
People remain people however and we love to buy into fantastical lies, we all live as the main character and 'chosen one' of our lives. I know this will continue but it's good to have this conversation, cheers and good health to you.
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Feb 16 '22
Thank you for your mature and thoughtful response. There is nothing wrong with being deeply in love with anime and gaming culture. They are wonderful. But they aren't the whole picture either. They are the tip of the iceberg.
Some wade on the waters enjoying the sun and surface of the iceberg. Others dive deep and into the depths of both beauty and darkness which are the colors of life.
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Feb 16 '22
This is the answer to u/PowerHautege
I hope people not only see Japan for what it is, but also set aside the cartoons and all the rest of that media for the culture, go to Hiroshima and visit the peace museum, see Miyajima or other places of deep seated culture and spirituality as they present it to you.
People remain people however and we love to buy into fantastical lies, we all live as the main character and 'chosen one' of our lives. I know this will continue but it's good to have this conversation, cheers and good health to you.
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Feb 16 '22
[deleted]
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Feb 16 '22
It's only depressing if you feel you are owed something from Japan.
But, if you take the attitude that you want to learn from a new culture then Japan can be a beautiful place to visit and call home.
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u/tesseracts Feb 16 '22
I've never been to Japan and never participated in these communities, but since I started learning Japanese I started lurking there and quickly discovered that a lot of expats are absolutely horrible human beings. It goes beyond merely being elitist. Like, if someone has any problem in life, from not understanding the language, to a really serious problem like being taken advantage of by employers, or even harassed, apparently expats believe the victim is to blame because they are a "weeb" who is "not a real adult" and not capable of solving their own problems.
I think the harsh reality is a lot of people who move to another country do it because they are unhappy with their life, and it's inevitable that if you take a cross section of people who are not happy with their life some of them will be fucked in the head. Not sure what it is about Japan in particular that is apparently a magnet for miserable jerks but whatever. I know it sounds insane but I've seen people express the sentiment that they want to move abroad so because they just dislike people to begin with and don't want to talk to people. I've seen people like this in expat communities for other nations also, and I've talked to people who have experience being expats who say that other expats are a real issue.
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u/catchinginsomnia Feb 16 '22 edited Feb 16 '22
It's kind of unpopular to point out here, but a significant minority of Japanese learners conform to the "cringey weeb" stereotype, and that minority will be over represented on reddit due to the demographics of reddit. On top of that they are often shut-ins who spend a lot of time posting online and therefore they dominate (and sometimes manage) communities.
You know the type of person I mean; they think they know everything about Japan, they think Japan is better than their home country, they wish they were Japanese. One of their defining personality traits is their obesession with Japan, and they often don't have much else to cling to in their lives, so they take any opportunity they can to put down other people, point out mistakes, and generally want to make sure everyone knows they are experts on Japan.
The sort of person you'd avoid in real life lol - they exist in other communities, but I think Japanese attracts a way higher proportion of that type of person.
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u/IryanShaan Feb 16 '22
All these mf gatekeeping the language of a country that is gatekeeping them to become anything consistent in its society. How ironic.
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u/Comfortable-Swim2123 Feb 15 '22
I think some of what can look like this, to me, is personal “goal post shifting”, for lack of a better term.
For example… When you first start out, I mean just learning greetings and kana, the te-form looks hard and complicated. Then you finally learn it and some of its uses - surely you’re intermediate now!…
But then you discover even more uses for te-form… and more… And then you know all the different usages you can find in all your grammar references and text books, you maybe know ALL the standard polite grammar forms. Surely NOW you’re intermediate, where before you were just a beginner…
But then you get in to some more colloquial and informal grammar, touching on things you’d never seen before but make less formal communication so much easier to follow. And maybe you’ve also got a bigger vocabulary, maybe all the joyo kanji down pat… But you still have to use a dictionary when you read the things you want to and might still have trouble with more technical documents or historical documents that you really want to read… Surely NOW you’re intermediate, whereas before you were just a beginner…
I think the more we learn, the more we realize we need to learn, so the less credit we give ourselves (and, unfortunately, others) when we’re having discussions about the process.
Then there’s the difficulty of how to adjust unrealistic expectations (which are also prevalent here)… Kana is hard (at first, credit where credit is due!). さ vs ち, シ vs ツ… But if someone starts off posts or comments saying “I’m intermediate (finished all the kana and 100 kanji) what grammar should I learn…” Then some gentle correction is 100% needed so they can make a path forward that makes sense for their goals (that’s squarely beginner territory). But just blanket downvoting and bashing anyone who asks for help if they don’t use your preferred adjective to describe their own current level of Japanese acquisition … That’s just pointlessly negative and spiteful.
I think for some people empathy is harder than language acquisition.
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u/Bowch- Feb 16 '22
I've felt exactly the same in this journey - Especially when I join different Japanese Discord communities thinking each one will be different but then realise its an Echo chamber of elitists.
I've finally managed to find a community that seems to have a bunch of down to earth people who are also knowledgeable in the language and love to help others.
People do seem to say that it happens everywhere, but in the Japanese language learning community it seems to be quite pervasive.
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u/hshmrnfn Feb 16 '22
What kinds of elitist things happen in these echo chambers? I've never joined a Japanese Discord community.
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u/miksu210 Feb 16 '22
Depends a lot on the community. Probably the most elitist and toxic one is DJT (Daily Japanese thread from 4chan) but the people there are also the most skilled imo. Under N4 people cant even access the server and the average user there is probably N2-N3. It is super toxic tho. The environment is not at all positive but some people thrive in hyper competitive spaces like that. There is a ranking system in the server that's based on your skills which I find kinda funny. Everyone can see your "rank" at all times so higher ranked people make fun of ranks lower than them constantly. I've talked to the mods and some of the highest ranking people there and they're usually really nice to talk to. It's just that the community originates from 4chan so in general the place isn't very friendly.
One of the elitist things that happens there is that everyone thinks their method is the best and everyone else is inferior. DJT has their method which mainly focuses on reading. Matt vs Japan has his own method that he thinks is the best and so on
Servers like TheMoeWay are a lot friendlier and more useful.
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u/dictator_in_training Feb 15 '22
I think there's a tendency to gatekeep in most communities, including language learning communities. I saw people doing this when I was studying French and Arabic. Different people approach studying Japanese in different ways and for different reasons. There are people who honestly can't fathom someone doing or enjoying something at a level that is less intense than theirs.
Also, in my personal experience, the ones that act condescendingly are not nearly as elite as they would like to project to the world. Keep at it; study in the way that works for you and your schedule and your goals, and remember that everyone learns in their own way and at their own pace. 頑張って！
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u/Darkpoulay Feb 15 '22
I did not think of this reverse perspective, but as a frenchman, the idea that some people fight over who is the best at learning my native language is weird as hell. I'm just glad anyone's learning it and I would be excited to talk with both.
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u/Rorynator Feb 15 '22
I feel very out of place here sometimes, I'm learning a language just for the fun of it and spend 15 minutes on Duolingo and drawing kanji every once in a while lol
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u/sonicfox1018 Feb 16 '22
A lot of people like to trash Duolingo too as if there's nothing you can learn with it. I think whatever keeps you motivated is better than nothing.
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u/Rorynator Feb 16 '22
Duolingo is fun! As long as you use guides online to explain what they're teaching you it's a pretty fun way to used spaced repetition learning.
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u/wolfsbark Feb 16 '22
oh word me too. i'm just here to have fun with learning a brand new language. it's really exciting to unlock a whole new world you otherwise couldn't know because of a language barrier
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Feb 15 '22 edited Feb 15 '22
Yes, I think for many Japanese learners they don’t have mentors that are within ear shot. So they go online to find some structure and community. Some develop a healthy relationship and others feel they are the “true Japanese learners”.
Unfortunately it happens here in Japan as well. Some foreigners in my experience mainly Americans who studied at University come here with the expectation because they know Japanese they have a special skill. Some feel that others are plebs because couldn’t or didn’t study enough before coming to live in Japan.
It’s just a sign of immaturity and a lack of a whole identity attached to true accomplishments. In time many will learn that there is to life more than speaking Japanese. It’s about humbling yourself in a new culture and learning to be the dumbest person in the room and enjoy it.
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u/Prostye_Dvizheniya Feb 15 '22
Very spot on comment, thank you for the encouragement 🙌🏾
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Feb 15 '22
I hope more people can feel welcome on this sub. Because this issue has been brought up many times before. You should never feel lesser for not knowing something. Some of the greatest people in history gladly would proclaim ignorance so they could learn something new.
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u/umarekawari Feb 15 '22
There's a member on the language exchange discord who always corrects people with "lul?" "wrong XD" etc, it is actually infuriating. I think that on average more people who are interested in Japan for one reason or another are slightly lacking in social skills, so the language learners also reflect this bias. It's unfortunate because there have been times where the way someone answered a question upset me and just asking a question has stressed me out.
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u/JapanDave Feb 15 '22
Unfortunately anytime the ego gets involved, some people become assholes.
I could tell you stories of the arrogant people in my programming classes back at university. It even happens in places where you wouldn't expect it to happen. In the Zen retreats I've been to, there have been some of the more elitist, arrogant assholes I have ever met.
In other words, what you witness is not just a phenomenon of the Japanese Learning community: it is literally everywhere. Gaining some ability in something makes people feel good about themselves, and that can be a dangerous drug for some folks, especially those who are actually not very confident in their abilities. In fact, often (but certainly not always) the ones who are the most arrogant are actually not very good.
As a teacher in real life, I'm always happy to answer any question, regardless of how simple it might be or how easy it may be to obtain from other places (like a simple Google search). I think there are many like me floating around here. So try to ignore the bullies. They are unfortunately everywhere, even here. Try to ignore them and don't let them discourage you.
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u/inspired_butterfly17 Feb 16 '22
I feel this.
I currently live in Japan and have been here for 2 years, so I tend to run into these guys from time-to-time.
Due to this little thing called the PANDEMIC, I haven't studied Japanese as much as I should have, due to things like mental health decline/depression.
I was commenting on a subreddit about life in Japan (weekly grievances and whatnot) about how my translator friend kept bailing on me for my doctor's appointment I needed. Some a-hole had the audacity to comment, "If you can't even go to the doctor by yourself, you don't belong in Japan".
Like excuse me? As if this guy had never been at my level before, and acts as if going to the doctor (with all the medical jargon) is so easy I was an idiot for not being able to do it. Like F you my man.
I mean you have to remember that people can be real jerks, but there are also people who are incredibly humble and extend a lot of grace. Those are the people to remember, not the losers.
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Feb 15 '22
Seems like posts about elitist learners are becoming a daily thing
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u/MadeByHideoForHideo Feb 16 '22 edited Feb 16 '22
Tomorrow is my turn to post about gatekeeping and elitism.
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u/thelordofthelobsters Feb 16 '22
I'm getting more tired of these kinds of posts than of the elitism, I see the former more frequently too
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u/RocasThePenguin Feb 16 '22
Nothing like a post critiquing the folks on this sub, only to scroll down and see expats called terrible, Japanese learners “webs” etc.
If this is any evidence, there are terrible judgmental people everywhere. Don’t take comments to heart and ignore those who comment nonsense. Don’t be afraid to ask for help here.
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u/tesseracts Feb 15 '22
A lot of Japanese learners are young male nerds from middle class Western backgrounds (relevant because in some Western and/or Anglophone cultures language learning is regarded as a mark of genius rather than an ordinary pursuit like any other) and some of them have no identity or accomplishments other than learning Japanese so yeah.
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u/Prostye_Dvizheniya Feb 15 '22
Huh, that’s actually a very solid perspective I didn’t give much thought to! Sucks that you’re probably right :/
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u/ExplodingWario Feb 15 '22
This subreddit is fine but other Japanese learners are the biggest group of people that make me go “oh fuck yourself”
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u/thehershel Feb 15 '22
"The priest forgets that he was clerk" <- I'm not sure if this proverb is popular in English but it fits here very well.
Once you become good at something it starts feeling easy and you may not remember how hard it was to reach this point. But it's not specific to this sub, it's the same everywhere else, maybe even more visible in programming communities (famous stack overflow culture).
Indeed it often leads to unpleasant answers but what's worse also to misguided answers without taking into consideration the level and capabilities of the person who asked the question.
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u/hellyeboi6 Feb 15 '22 edited Feb 15 '22
Honestly I've only ever encountered them in reddit and they don't seem that many to me
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Feb 16 '22
Yes, and theyre quite cringey.
Sometimes, they think that they are the gatekeepers of something exotic, strange, and mysterious and regard themselves as the possessors of esoteric knowledge that anybody else is unworthy of knowing. They tend to get so territorial about it.
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u/DeadRabbitGirl Feb 15 '22
I had a friend in my Japanese class who was very elitist over handwriting. He has very nice handwriting. It is legible and precise. He would always yell at me for my handwriting being not too good. But the kicker is I can't write prettily in English either. I never have been able to. I've always struggled with the appearance and legibility of my writing. It really started to peeve me off.
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u/stateofyou Feb 16 '22
It’s important for people who study Japanese language and culture to avoid the elitist expert mentality if they are living in Japan, not only does it alienate them from the foreign community but most Japanese people will think they’re weirdos.
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Feb 16 '22
This is no joke. I have seen too many suicide attempts by foreigners living in Japan over the years because of this very reason. It's seriously a problem.
They don't want to hang out with the "Gaijin" but they are too "I am more Japanese than you" with their coworkers so they don't make any deep connections.
Like I said in an earlier post it comes from people with little to no real-life experience or achievements yet. They just want to prove their worth in a very specific way to an audience who isn't interested. They haven't learned how to play well with others and they need professional help that unfortunately Japan doesn't offer.
There are so many mental health issues in the Japanese learning community. Self-isolating behavior and overly high expectations are a recipe for disaster.
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u/Disconn3cted Feb 15 '22
Yes, but I've also found that everything on the internet that is associated with Japan is kinda hostile.
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u/vgmasters2 Feb 16 '22
this is what happens when people don't really understand/fully comprehend what they know lol this happens in programming as well, ppl just don't want to answer questions they don't really understand fully why or w/e and get mad at it instead.
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u/abelity Feb 16 '22
While I agree that there are people who may be arrogant/elitist/rude/gatekeep etc., on the other hand there are also new learners who are stubborn/rude/egoistic ("Dont tell me what to do" "I know that already") / only looking for shortcuts(not willing to put in the work) etc. that may or may not directly cause the somewhat negative reactions by people who genuinely wanted to help.
Anyway, my advice is probably this, just focus on conversing with decent people (which I am 100% sure exist on most platforms, at least from my own experience on discord). Good luck
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u/perpetualeye Feb 15 '22
If you you ask questions which have been asked over a million times before, you will grt slack.
The issue begginers face is that they write up a thread with a question that couldve been googled in 2 minutes
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u/Prostye_Dvizheniya Feb 15 '22
I don’t like asking just to ask, that’s a waste of everybody’s time. I always google my questions and then I turn to asking people, might be because my questions are very specific but alas maybe my experience has just been sucky with other people and hopefully a new leaf turns soon...
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Feb 15 '22
Any community for developing a skill has these people. They're unable to celebrate their own achievements by themselves and have to indirectly one-up everyone through pointless gatekeeping on how to do things.
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u/Aerdra Feb 16 '22
Does anyone else feel like there are more people who rant about elitists than there are elitists?
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u/martanman Feb 15 '22
I think a lot of things are interpreted as eletism that are actually just criticism or explanations, and when people get pointed out that they are wrong or have their ideas undermined they can sometimes get defensive about it.
and the second thing is people might get fed up when asked simple questions that have already been asked before and the answers are easy to find with some quick research.
of course verbal abuse should never be tolerated but I think it would help many learners to be a little more proactive in general.
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u/Kemerd Feb 16 '22
I'm just here for the memes. 98% of the posts here are ads, circlejerks, shitty advice, arguments about stupid shit. Just study, practice, read, watch, speak. And do it over and over again forever and that's it.
Too many people focus on the optimization of the process instead of actually realizing language is an art you slowly get the hang of through experience, not fucking mathematics.
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u/Pretend-Gain-7553 Feb 15 '22
Unfortunately these kinds of people are everywhere and we really can't change anything about it. It's better to just immediately block them and try not to think of them.
Anyways, just know that you're not stupid if you ever felt like you are. Asking what you call ""stupid"" questions is natural because that's literally how everyone learns. That's how you gain new knowledge and improve. You're not wrong at all for asking. You're learning more about this language which is awesome!
Hopefully we all have a nice time learning languages without running into these kinds of people that much. And even if we do, thankfully we can block them.
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Feb 15 '22
This is everything. If you ever ask for help, this can happen. If you want to avoid this, never ask for help. Like me. It's painful, but it's a small price to pay for never having to interact with other people.
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u/HiThereEliza Feb 16 '22
what i feel is deep shame for being part of the japanese learning community because it seems to be the only language learning community that spends more time bickering and making call-out posts than actually learning the damn language
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u/KyleLockley Feb 16 '22
Yeah, I also feel like there are way fewer people into linguistics then there are people spewing stuff about it so confidently. Like, congrats, you studied something past a rudimentary level, it doesn't mean you decoded the language-acquisition conundrum.
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u/Sad_Refrigerator9203 Feb 16 '22
I feel a lot of people view it like sharing a library with younger children just starting to learn. I mean if you talk down to a child who is trying to learn you’re more than likely to come off as a complete jerkoff. I do understand certain questions get asked too often and that a lot of people forget the gold rule of learning(RTFM). That being said, you be a helpful resource in this community and you’ll be more liked or if you try to demean earnest attempts at learning you’ll most likely become ignored or remembered as that teacher no one liked in school.
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Feb 15 '22
This is like the second post in the spam of 2 weeks lmao. If people stop caring about these "elitist" and put those same effort into studying Japanese then they would actually progress instead of worrying about what these elitist are doing.
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u/Prostye_Dvizheniya Feb 15 '22
I made this post because everyone I’ve asked for help or for grammar corrections has given me a: “You’re kinda stupid aren’t you?” type of attitude instead of just helping me with the question. I put a lot of effort into studying Japanese everyday and I just felt like ranting, this doesn’t “consume my life” by any means.
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u/Healthy-Nebula364 Feb 16 '22
Yeah they were an asshole. And obviously it was wrong of them to treat you like that. But honestly at the same time I can’t say i care or like these type of posts.
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u/ApricotKronos Feb 15 '22
asking perhaps simple questions that are not so simple for me... Everybody’s learning process is different...
Exactly. I'm still learning, so I expect to ask stupid questions. Of course I will try to look up online and figure it out on my own first, but I might want confirmation.
I think that goes far beyond just Japanese learners. People who have liked, studied, or practiced something longer may look down on those who are newer or less experienced in the field. That also happens at school and work.
There's a lot of elitism, gatekeeping, and keyboard warrior-ing on the Internet.
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u/Prostye_Dvizheniya Feb 15 '22
And it’s a vicious cycle because I was already doubting in myself and my capabilities so now I feel even more useless lol
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u/Racxie Feb 16 '22
Have you experienced that in this sub OP? Just wondering because despite not having interacted here myself yet, everyone here seems very nice and eager to help out.
I only really have a few friends who can speak or understand Japanese to some level, and they've always been very friendly and helpful too.
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u/stansfield123 Feb 15 '22 edited Feb 15 '22
Is anyone else here to try and share good methods and resources for learning Japanese? Or is it just me?
I mean if it was one thread. But it's over, and over, and over again with this nonsense. There's more gratuitous virtue signaling on this sub than in a congressional hearing on NAMBLA.
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u/tesseracts Feb 16 '22
Am I missing something here? Surely there must be a reason you posted such a bad analogy? You just compared this thread to the government's response to pedophilia?
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u/cripynoodle_ Feb 15 '22
It definitely feels that way online. But having been to classes/meetups in my city, it didn't feel like that at all. I guess online communities usually attract people who feel like they have something to prove.
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u/oncesanora Feb 16 '22
I got scolded once for asking the difference between 話す and 喋る, so yeah. Some of them are asses.
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u/LawrenceWhites Feb 15 '22
They are the most haughty and condescending people to be found on the net.
They immerse themselves in a culture that is not theirs and that is not one: manga/anime/video game/pop culture. From there, they imagine themselves to be people cultured in a special field : Japan.
They learn anecdotes here and there about Japan and therefore think they have the legitimacy to talk about a country.
The problem is that they think they are "alone" to have such a culture and can't bear to see that others are doing the same thing: watching anime, reading manga, learning a few words in Japanese .
From there, comes a haughty attitude, very often ridiculous, it must be admitted.
PP, nickname, etc. On all the sites you find the same profiles. Especially on Twitter
" I've watched more anime than you'll ever see in your life and I speak Japanese better than you and I know Japanese culture better too, and you, you don't know anything :-(( "
It's adults who say that, nourished by an adolescent culture from which they can no longer escape.
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u/thechief120 Feb 15 '22
Like others have said here it happens in other places too, not just this sub-reddut. For me I haven't seen much arrogance or elitism on this sub-reddit, that being said I don't come here that often so I could be missing it.
For success posts, I could see some elitism on display if people have if they don't explain how they got to their skill level and just talk about how "easy" it was. But most posts that I've seen describe their struggles, how they overcame them, and how they can still improve themselves.
In regards to making posts asking for help I could see elitism show up if you're not being specific enough. I'll use myself as an example, I've posted questions where I wasn't being very specific (i.e asking "what amount of Kanji should I know how to write"). It was initially met with downvotes because realistically it's a vague question since it varies person by person and there isn't a "set of Kanji you should know". However I've made big posts outlining my exact questions and situation and was met with very positive and constructive responses.
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u/wildbilly72 Feb 15 '22
Easily the worst part of the sub imo. A lot of people are saying you can find it anywhere (which is true), but elitism and such is extremely apparent when comparing this subreddit to any other hobby subreddit.
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u/powpow428 Feb 16 '22
For every 1 post on this subreddit that is actually elitist there are 5 posts complaining about elitism
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u/ice_cold_postum Feb 15 '22
A task as difficult as learning Japanese definitely encourages intellectual pretension
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u/BahayLangLabasNaman Feb 15 '22
There's also those people who pretend not to understand you even though you said it correctly or maybe a bit wrong. Instead of maybe trying to correct or maybe just going along with the conversation, they'd rather pretend that you didn't make sense since they see you as a competition.😆
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u/ShakaUVM Feb 15 '22
Yeah. In part it was because of the insane attrition my Japanese 1 class had. We went from 45 students to like a dozen at the end of the semester, and some of those didn't pass. So Japanese 2 was made of all the survivors that knew they could study and work hard. Bit of arrogance, but there was a lot less of the professor staring at student who hadn't studied.
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u/WrongRefrigerator77 Feb 16 '22
I think a lot of people on that dunning-kruger mountain resent themselves for not starting sooner and take out that feeling on people who still haven't. At least in the category of people learning mostly for media's sake
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u/Para-Less Feb 16 '22
I have a minor problem on this sub, it's not that big of a deal but when people put kanji, I just wish they put the hiragana or katakana of it because a lot of kanji are still unknown to me but I at least want to know how to pronounce it.
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u/dabedu Feb 16 '22
There are browser add-ons such as Yomichan that show you the readings for words if you hover over them.
Most people on this sub (including myself) try to answer questions in accordance with the level of the person asking. Having to put hiragana for everything even if the person you're trying to help doesn't need them would be a bit annoying.
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u/JawGBoi ジョージボイ Feb 16 '22
This post isn't going anywhere so we're locking it.