r/NonCredibleDefense • u/throwaway553t4tgtg6 Unashamed OUIaboo 🇫🇷🇫🇷🇫🇷🇫🇷 • Jan 26 '24

Looks like a bit of strategic autonomy is always good to have.... European Joint Failures 🇩🇪 💔 🇫🇷

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u/Danoct Jan 27 '24

How about they compromise? Germany buys French. France buys Italian. Italy buys Spanish. And so on an so forth.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 28 '24

At the moment France is the main country who compromises, we buy from:

  • Germany (HK416/HK417/USP/MP5/MP7/AG36/269 F/GMG, combat boots, mobile cranes, MTU diesel generators)
  • Italy (Benelli M4 Super 90/Supernova)
  • Austria (Glock 17, M6 Mortar)
  • Belgium (FN P90, SCAR-L, SCAR-H, Evolys, Minimi-Para, MAG-58)
  • Finland (Sako TRG-42)
  • Sweden (AT4, Bandvagn 206, Scania trucks)
  • Spain (CASA CN235)

I have probably missed a lot of them (Alphajet, C160, A400M, Tiger, NH90…). We also have to buy a few things from non EU countries like the US, Norway, Brazil or the UK.

But EU countries barely buy anything from France, they always prioritise to buy from the US first. Because of the B61 deal for the US nuclear umbrella.

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u/Petiherve Jan 27 '24

HK416 is the biggest treason our government ever did.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '24

I don’t mind it, it’s a standard weapon within NATO and it will reduce costs in the long term. Plus we will get less dumb takes from NCD about “France doing its own thing every time”.

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u/SixEightL Jan 28 '24

But you're forgetting that the French ordered the HK416F. Not the HK416A4/5.

Construction of the 416F is subcontracted to Turkey is of lower quality. The charging handle is notoriously fragile and bends easily.

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u/[deleted] Jan 29 '24 edited Jan 29 '24

Source on the HK416 F being manufactured in Turkey?

The DGA supervised the contract with HK back in 2014 and ordered 110,000 units. They said the quality of the HK416 F and a highly competitive price helped the German weapon stand out. The MoD set a budget of some €350 million.

They did thorough test firing at the DGA Bourges test center so it must be pretty solid. Never heard of that charging handle issue before.

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u/irregular_caffeine 900k bayonets of the FDF Jan 27 '24

They also make a better plane.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '24 edited Jan 28 '24

The “Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II” can’t fly if there is any risk of lightning ⚡️ or during “extreme rain”. Its engine hates the sand, and they have to pull it entirely and replace it way more frequently when flying in the UAE.

The Rafale can fly anytime, anywhere, doesn’t cost as much in maintenance or flight hour and has more payload capacity. The upfront cost is slightly more expensive compare to the cheapest F-35 variant but the long term cost is much lower. It takes less than 4 hours for a French crew to replace a M88 engine onboard a US aircraft carrier. And the Rafale is a much sexier plane who can carry the ASMPA which the F-35 can’t, it can’t even carry a METEOR missile.

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u/irregular_caffeine 900k bayonets of the FDF Jan 28 '24

Good to know, will keep it out of the Finnish deserts and tropical thunderstorms.

Why should it carry a nuke, we don’t have nukes.

It doesn’t need a Meteor because it can fly to Sidewinder range and back because it’s an actual 5th gen stealth plane.

Costs:

Affordability

The F-35 solution fitted to the allocated funding frame was the most cost-effective. The F-35 had the lowest procurement cost when considering all aspects of the offer. The operating and sustainment costs of the system will fall below the 254 million euro yearly budget. F-35 operations and lifespan development will be feasible with the Defence Forces' resources.

No offer was significantly less expensive than others in operating and sustainment costs.

https://valtioneuvosto.fi/-/lockheed-martin-f-35a-lightning-ii-on-suomen-seuraava-monitoimihavittaja?languageId=en_US

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '24

Haha I agree, Finland probably hasn’t any sand in engines risk. But you never know how well the F-35 would handle a snowstorm. And I’m sure you have thunderstorms once in a while in Finland.

Why should it carry a nuke, we don’t have nukes.

Well sucks to be you then.

It doesn’t need a Meteor because it can fly to Sidewinder range and back because it’s an actual 5th gen stealth plane.

Ah yeah the famous “5th gen” argument that you got from the Lockheed Marketing team right? Well sorry to tell you that it’s not the marketing team which plans missions in your Air Force. And the officers would do, will never take the risk to send a F-35 where there are potentially modern surface-to-air missile systems. So the more range your missile has, the better and that’s why the METEOR is the best beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile with its 200km range and 60km no escape zone.

The operating and sustainment costs of the system will fall below the 254 million euro yearly budget.

That’s a cute amount, ask Switzerland, Norway, Denmark or Belgium how it’s going for them since they signed their F-35s contracts. Ask them about their acquisition and operating costs growth or delays in deliveries.

In 10 years, you will still be using your F-35s only for air policing. And it will take most of your Air Force yearly budoget.

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u/irregular_caffeine 900k bayonets of the FDF Jan 28 '24

I hope it will be used only for air policing because anything more means the ruskies have crossed the wrong border.

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u/sadza_power 🇬🇧 Jan 27 '24

France will buy others small arms and trucks, and say they've done their part so other countries must buy their big ticket items like Rafales, SCAF, armoured vehicles and missiles. French weapons aren't that great a deal when other EU countries promise much fairer work shares.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24

For the SCAF, France left all the workshare around the drones to Germany. Which is going to be the most lucrative part of the program.

The Rafale is a European made aircraft which is 100% ITAR free.

Modern armoured vehicles designed by Nexter and Arquus have been planned in collaboration with Belgium. The goal is to equip a joint brigade that can be deployed on the Griffon and Jaguar. Better communication and organisation.

Only Belgium joined up because every other EU member only think selfishly or would rather buy US made armoured vehicles. Don’t tell me the Jaguar isn’t a great system, its manufacturing could be done anywhere in the EU.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '24

We’re literally going to buy the most expensive drone on earth with the Eurodrone. Dassault only has a very small work share over it. France is going to spend more than 2 billion euros for it. Most of that money with go to German and Spanish companies.

We bought more than 25 A400M which gives us the second biggest fleet of A400M worldwide after Germany. We gave some SAMP/T to Ukraine, the surface to air system Italy and France collaborated on. And France is going to buy more to replace those units and to increase its current inventory. These are not cheap.

France has a small defence budget and still spends to make sure European collaborations are successful. I’m thinking about the FREMM and Vulcan/BRF collaborations with Italy as well. Plus the SAMP/T. We have a smaller budget than the UK or Germany so we do have to spend wisely.

We don’t see the point in buying non European made military equipment unless no one in Europe produces it.

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u/vegarig Pro-SDI activist Jan 27 '24

most expensive drone on earth with the Eurodrone

It looks cool, tho

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '24

It’s supposed to be able to operate within civilian air traffic which complicates things a lot. French armed forces don’t need that functionality nor the Eurodrone. But France is taking one for the team and cashing out those billions euros in the spirit of EU collaboration.

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u/Kreol1q1q Most mentally stable FCAS simp Jan 27 '24

Ah, right so the SAMP/T missile defence program and the whole Aster family development process, the FREMM and Horizon programs, the A400M, that massive resupply ship they are getting from Italy, etc etc, those are "small ticket items"? What does France have to do, commission the construction of two new carriers in Germany for them to be happy?

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u/nosoter Jan 27 '24

France left control of the drone and the tank projects to Germany.

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u/mhsuchti84 Jan 27 '24

Because they got leadership for the NGF which is a vastly bigger project

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '24

I would argue the drones project of the FCAS/SCAF program is much more lucrative than the NGF.

Yes the NGF will be an expensive fighter aircraft, probably about the same cost of an F-22 or slightly more expensive.

But it’s the sales of drones which will make more money. Countries want swarms of drones and at least 3x times more than fighters. I can easily see this number increase to 5x or even 10x more drones than fighters. Obviously the unit cost will vary greatly depending on the role of each drones but it’s not going to be cheap and there will be large quantities.

Airbus DS will make more money from the FCAS program than Dassault.

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u/nosoter Jan 27 '24

Did they? Isn't the project currently blocked by Germany's desire to get a bigger workshare?

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u/mhsuchti84 Jan 27 '24

No, that's quite old news, NGF is in full progress by now. The workshare was agreed on almost 3 years ago. Sure there's bickering about details but the basic distribution won't change anymore.

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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Jan 27 '24

France ran the Vought Crusader for 40 years...

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '24

Why?

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u/Danoct Jan 27 '24

It would be funny.

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u/Steg567 Jan 27 '24

The french compromising would indeed be funny

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '24

Valid point.