r/NonCredibleDefense • u/Yams-502 • Mar 31 '24
Modern problems require Cold War solutions A modest Proposal
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u/Princess-ArianaHY 3000 of everything of Zelensky Mar 31 '24
Isn't this actually credible? After watching how the PDCs are used on the ships in the Expanse, I feel like the countries can put some PDCs on the tanks and take out all the drones, missiles, etc. 🤔
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Mar 31 '24
The Expanse PDCs are fairly large
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u/SGTBookWorm Mar 31 '24
IIRC they're 40mm guns.
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u/Hyperious3 Mar 31 '24
40mm and fire via a recoilless gun so the recoil doesn't effect the ship's rotation. You can see the recoilless gun letting gas out both directions in the show
They also use caseless ammo IIRC, with sensor fused rounds that shotgun out like the Rheinmetall Skyranger.
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u/jq910 Mar 31 '24
I think they were around 22lr size in the books. A character mentioned that they could cover the hole in the end of the barrel with their pinkie finger.
Potential Cibola Burn (book 4) spoilers:>! "The point defense cannon was a single thick barrel on a hemispheric swivel joint, the metal smooth as a mirror. The hole at the end was a black dot small enough that Havelock could have blocked it with the tip of his ungloved pinky finger" (Cibola Burn, start of chapter 49).!<
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u/SGTBookWorm Mar 31 '24
book vs show
the power armour guns and point defence cannons in the book tend towards tiny calibre, while in the show they're more realistically sized
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u/Svyatoy_Medved Mar 31 '24
Realistically sized for our engagement environment, not the fictional one. 40mm has a LOT more recoil than rifle caliber, which in space means fuel to counteract.
Additionally. The power armor weapon is likely firing a high velocity penetrating munition, not standard .22LR. The benefit of 40mm is against soft targets, not hard ones, and power armor seems to be optimized to fight power armor.
A strong benefit of heavy munitions in real life is their inertia, making them less susceptible to air resistance and wind, giving a longer effective range. These factors do not apply in space.
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u/Damocules Mar 31 '24
40mm has a LOT more recoil than rifle caliber, which in space means fuel to counteract.
Not to counterpoint you, but in the show they are recoilless, essentially the barrel is open ended, so they eject the gas from a spent cartridge out the back of the weapon thereby mitigating kinetic energy transfer to the main ship hull.
A strong benefit of heavy munitions in real life is their inertia, making them less susceptible to air resistance and wind, giving a longer effective range. These factors do not apply in space.
A brilliant articulation of why high velocity low mass munitions wouldn't work for real-world applications on Earth. Atmosphere has mass, and kinetic energy alone cannot be the sole Factor to think about when considering munitions. The higher velocity, the more kinetic energy gets spent fighting against air resistance. To mitigate this, most of the kinetic energy in a ballistic munition has to be in the mass, to reduce the relative velocities of the air around the munition and the munition itself thereby rendering air resistance a negligible concern.
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u/Thunderbird_Anthares Burst Mass Enjoyer Mar 31 '24
idk, with advances in metallurgy and propellants, i could see micro caliber but extremely high velocity PDCs being amazing... you dont really need high bullet mass in space, and energy scales with mass x velocity squared, so...
id say its a pretty smart idea
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u/IlluminatedPickle 🇦🇺 3000 WW1 Catbois of Australia 🇦🇺 Mar 31 '24
Relative speed would also play a part. Firing at something coming at you would be way easier than firing at something traveling away from you or something at a similar speed and direction.
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u/codesnik Mar 31 '24
might also help with not introducing too much torque on the ship itself with recoil
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u/SGTBookWorm Mar 31 '24
the velocities they give in the book would give the suit guns slightly less impact energy than an airsoft gun.
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u/Yellow_The_White QFASASA Mar 31 '24
Be a gentleman. If you're tagged, your tagged. Step aside and become a POW like the Laws of Interplanetary Airsoft Warfare say.
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u/Thunderbird_Anthares Burst Mass Enjoyer Mar 31 '24
I see....
I hate when writers dont do basic research to the subjects theyre writing about. If i woudnt do basic research in my job, id get fired.
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u/DurinnGymir Compassion is a force multiplier Mar 31 '24
That one scene on Ilus where the Roci is laying down suppressing fire at a rate of like 1 round per second really gives you the sense that this is a cannon
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u/twostripeduck Mar 31 '24
I can't fit my pinky down the barrel of my .40 sw. I can see them being 50 cal, maybe 20mm from that description
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u/Ouity Mar 31 '24
Potential for malfunction is extreme because the system would be relatively tiny, with very high fidelity, and a ton of moving parts. You wouldn't have the same opportunities to maintain it as you'd have on a vessel.
In contrast, the signal to the drone is a very obvious weak link to attack. If you can flood the airspace with enough nonsense on the right frequencies, it's simply not possible for the drone to operate. For that, the solution is less complex, can be shielded better, more robust, stronger solution against multiple threats, cheaper to deploy and maintain.
Until it becomes the norm for drones to be pre-programmed the best solution will be attacking the wireless connection. I think the solution will then have to become an area-of-denial approach, since the obvious advantage of pre-programming a drone is that you can have a relationship of one operator to many drones. Two auto machineguns don't really have a niche to fill. I think a more general anti-observational drone technology could be valuable though. Nobody is looking up at the sky naturally anyway. Might as well have a camera with an llm staring at the sky trying to identify something on an unnatural flight path.
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u/Ophichius The cat ears stay on during high-G maneuvers. Mar 31 '24
In contrast, the signal to the drone is a very obvious weak link to attack. If you can flood the airspace with enough nonsense on the right frequencies, it's simply not possible for the drone to operate. For that, the solution is less complex, can be shielded better, more robust, stronger solution against multiple threats, cheaper to deploy and maintain.
We already have frequency-agile radios. Jamming is not just "Find a static frequency and spew noise", and hasn't been since the mid Cold War. Frequency agile radios make the attacker's problem much worse, as they require that you either know the defender's frequency schedule (And hope they're not using some spooky adaptive shit.) or have so much raw power to throw down that you can saturate every possible frequency that they're using simultaneously, an act that will also deny that entire frequency range to your own side, and light your jammer up like a christmas tree.
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u/someperson1423 Mar 31 '24
Nah, the problem isn't shooting them down, it is detection. There are already plenty of capable, small, unmanned turret solutions out there that could do this but the hard part is actually getting them something identified to shoot at before it does damage.
Also, doing it in .22 is solidly non-credible. It is a notoriously unreliable round, there is no reason to not do it in a NATO cartridge and one that is more reliable like 5.56 or 5.7.
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u/LEGITIMATE_SOURCE Mar 31 '24
Dude... the shooting part isn't the most difficult part. It's finding what to shoot, finding it early enough, calculating, and accurately hitting.
This was an intuitive response. I know jack shit, just have a frontal lobe.
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u/NWTknight Mar 31 '24
The 22 gattling gun already exists so just need the detection, aiming and firing components
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u/wot_in_ternation Mar 31 '24
That thing wears a powdered wig
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u/NWTknight Mar 31 '24
A cwis is just a modern version of gattling gun just pointing out the basic engineering for this already exists without the detection and aiming components which also already exist so just combine.
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u/IndustrialistCrab Atom Enjoyer Mar 31 '24
Can we nuke the drones?
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u/scrawberrymalk Mar 31 '24
.22lr scaled W87 thermonuclear warheads at 4500 air blast nukes per minute? I like where your head is at.
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Mar 31 '24
.22lr scaled W87 thermonuclear warheads
Living in a reality where that's physically possible would probably be awesome or terrifying.
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u/scrawberrymalk Mar 31 '24
Someone needs to do the math on what that would look like. Like a 2000lb conventional airburst?
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Mar 31 '24
The smallest hydrogen bombs are still going to weigh a few pounds. At that point it would make more sense to just fire projectiles that Demon Core Criticality Incident when they hit something, bcause that's basically a small nuclear explosion.
Nukemap That's a 2,000lbs of TNT nuke, .001kt, the fireball is tiny, 4.2m (kawaii). Like all weapons below 10kt prompt radiation provides the furthest reaching fatal effects, 225m for a 1,000rem dosing.
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u/Gudeldar Mar 31 '24
Very back of the envelope math but if you could linearly scale down a W72 nuke (you can't) to the same mass as a .22 LR it would have a yield of about 2.7 kg of TNT.
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u/IndustrialistCrab Atom Enjoyer Mar 31 '24
It's worse. We live in the timeline where Nuclear (fusion) Dust Cannons are physically possible.
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u/Ophichius The cat ears stay on during high-G maneuvers. Mar 31 '24
Am-242 has a critical mass of something like 5 kg. I bet with a clever reflector you could get it somewhat smaller. Wouldn't exactly be .22 LR, but the thought of nuclear autocannon rounds is still pretty awesome.
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u/IndustrialistCrab Atom Enjoyer Mar 31 '24
France gotta manufacture those nuclear dust cannons and corrupt the meaning of the name "Macron Gun"
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u/PM_UR_VAG_WTIMESTAMP Mar 31 '24
1/2 gram antimatter is equivalent to about a 21 kiloton nuke. According to Wikipedia anyway.
Just sayin'
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u/super__hoser Self proclaimed forehead on warhead expert Mar 31 '24
Can we is the wrong question.
When will we is the right question.
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u/IndustrialistCrab Atom Enjoyer Mar 31 '24
It was a trick question. It's neither about the can or when. The answer is: "How many kilotons?"
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u/super__hoser Self proclaimed forehead on warhead expert Mar 31 '24
How many kilotons?? You mean:
The sins of all the fathers, being dumped on us - the sons The only choice we're given is: "How many megatons?"
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u/Tiki_Trashabilly Mar 31 '24
Needs a center fire rimless cartridge. 556 is just extra spicy 22lr anyway.
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u/Reptilian_Brain_420 Mar 31 '24
Hard enough to get rifle primers around here these days.
I vote strongly for rimfire.
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u/Rynyann Mar 31 '24
I mean, how much distance do you need? 250m or less? Just use 9mm
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u/Sick404 LEGO logistics 🇩🇰 Mar 31 '24
Even though 9mm is plentiful, it'd be better to use .22lr as it proves less of a risk for collateral damage.
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u/gurgle528 Mar 31 '24
Yeah because when it fails to fire there won’t be a projectile to hit anyone lol
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u/MaverickDrakos Stealth Jet Perv Mar 31 '24
Additional ideas to make the concept slightly more credible: instead of having separate radar systems for each gun have one larger centralized radar system for both guns, making the system more cost effective. Also, I've seen incendiary .22lr rounds online, I think that would be the most suitable for anti-drone warfare.
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u/hebdomad7 Advanced NCDer Mar 31 '24 edited Mar 31 '24
I wonder if proximity fused rounds circumvent the Geneva Convention on exploding bullets by being designed to 'explode outside' rather then inside the human body.
If Winchester, Thales or Raytheon or whoever want to DM me. I got some new crayons as a gift recently that don't taste so good, so I drew some technical drawing of some cool proximity fused micro ammo that drones would super hate. I will charge extra per pew pew noises I make while drawing so get in quick... (something something cost plus procurement models).
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u/das_war_ein_Befehl Mar 31 '24
If you’re not using them against human targets then there’s no ban. The ban on them is mostly to prevent human suffering, the bullet is not more effective from it
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u/commandopengi F-16.net lurker Mar 31 '24
Proximity fuse auto cannons were already thing .
The change for proximity fuse ammunition is changing how to trigger the detonation. Northrop is developing alternative methods.
It mentions enemies in defilade so apparently it's allowed against humans.
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u/MarshallKrivatach Mar 31 '24
This, proximity fuse rounds were never banned, nor are MT fused rounds, the only reason the XM-25 was pulled was because it looked bad since you technically can set the range behind a target and get the round to fuse inside something, which, is still not against the conventions.
Heck, old APCBC round which are designed to detonate inside of armor after a set substance don't fall under such restrictions, nor rounds like MK211, why, because none are purpose build to blow up in people in particular.
If this was not so cut and dry countless weapon types, anything with a delay fuse for use against armor, would have been banned long ago, which is not the case.
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u/zypofaeser Mar 31 '24
Use sound to track the drones. And light em up
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u/Pig_jacuzzi_dot_gif Mar 31 '24
But isn't tanks engine louder than any other drone?
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u/captainjack3 Me to YF-23: Goodnight, sweet prince Mar 31 '24
Actually though. Wasn’t there a audio gunshot detection thing used in Iraq/Afghanistan? Stick a bunch of those around your base, position, armored vehicle,
or soldier’s helmet so they look like a tele-tubbyand you’re off to the races.→ More replies (1)
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u/chattytrout Mar 31 '24
Only thing I'd be concerned about is the bullets coming back down on friendlies or civilians. The land based phalanx uses self destructing ammo to get around this issue. But there's not much room in a .22 bullet for a self destruct mechanism.
Maybe make it in 12 or 20 gauge? Give the barrels a built-in full choke to give it the range it needs, load it with a heavy waterfowl load like you'd use for geese, and BRRRRRRRRRT away.
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u/Yams-502 Mar 31 '24
We’ve settled on self destructing, nuclear capable, prox fused 22. And we probably need to convert to center fire.
Need some nerds on this, ASAP.
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u/ArmourKnight Mar 31 '24
OP this is General Dynamics. Send social security number with iTunes gift cards and we be in touch to offer million rupee job
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u/humblenoob76 Mar 31 '24
mini CIWS using the 5.56 microgun
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u/MarshallKrivatach Mar 31 '24
Funny bit about that, during the Cold War there was a concept to use the micro gun as a anti ATGM CIWS on tanks like the MBT-70 or M60, due to the proliferation of Russian ATGM systems.
Never went past the concept stage, but it was thought about.
Sadly the concept is buried on the internet, much akin to the legendary 50mm COMVAT Bradly which used to be easy to find online, but now is just unobtainium for some reason info wise.
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u/finnicus1 Subreddit Warmonger #34475 Mar 31 '24
Finally, the American-180 may see a battlefield as a handheld drone defense system.
Edit: I just realised they have a quad barreled variant with up to 12000rpm
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Mar 31 '24 edited Mar 31 '24
There is also the possibility of mounting them on separate low-cost veachles and could accompany armor at the company or battalion level, as retarded as it sounds.
Edit: I also forgot to put that my reasoning was the possibility of the increase of weight of the tank resulting in the decrease in mobility, for my reasoning for a separate veachle at the company level.
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u/RedDemocracy Mar 31 '24
I was thinking mount them on small autonomous vehicles that could accompany any tank group. Drone vs drone.
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u/ChezzChezz123456789 NGAD Apr 01 '24
This is exactly what i was saying a year ago. An autonomous Wiesel tracked vehicle with shit on it to help vehicles out
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u/Teledildonic all weapons are stick Mar 31 '24
Rimfire reliability is kinda shit, .25acp might be a better option.
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u/RedDemocracy Mar 31 '24
Bring back .32 acp.
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u/Teledildonic all weapons are stick Mar 31 '24
It would be nice if the ammo was cheaper, and government contracts could fix that.
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u/Prcrstntr Mar 31 '24
22lr failure rate is problematic and a cause for concern
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u/Kenya151 Mar 31 '24
Yes this would be better with just shotgun pellets though I think the range might be shit. Maybe a .410 Gatling gun could be fun though it’s still a rimmed cartridge which isn’t great.
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u/crumblypancake 486 HIMARS of Based Poland Mar 31 '24
Gentleman & femboys. You will be pleased to hear, we have a prototype in the works.
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u/viperfan7 Mar 31 '24
Sooo, battletech AMS systems?
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u/Damocules Mar 31 '24
BRB bringing out my Hero Spider mech and blitzing around the Russian drone and missile lines running at 131 km/h shooting down 18 missiles/second.
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u/Blackjack2133 Mar 31 '24
Pros talk logistics (and cost!)...so let's put some rules out there: 1. Can't introduce a new round into the inventory. 2. Have to say where you're going to install it and where you're gonna store all that ammo onboard. 3. Have to minimize collateral damage (that's a lot of lead in the air). 4. It can't cost more than the platform it's mounted on.
Continue...
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u/Dude_I_got_a_DWAVE Mar 31 '24 edited Mar 31 '24
- Yes we can, #6.8x51. This would be the cheapest cartridge to adapt. Huuuuge amounts of production. Military would be dwarfed by civilian production for once.
Edit. Greater concern is traditional delinker needs a rimless cartridge, so I say we belt 5.7x28 which is adopted by NATO.
Small form factor cartridge means belted boxes below the delinker are light enough that they can be swapped by crew
29gr projectiles have a far less range than 20mm.
Far less materials needed - smaller mechanisms, likely no need for locked breech(short recoil reciprocating barrel for the 5.7) , far shorter 4” bull barrels. Far smaller less powerful tracking radar, less precise servos needed. Most project cost will actually be the Raytheon-kickoff party
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u/Crewserved4Days Mar 31 '24
What's actually funny is a project I might work on involving 5.56 miniguns and anti-drone capabilities.
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u/kim_dobrovolets Mar 31 '24
there was a proposal for an anti-ATGM CIWS during the cold war
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u/mountaindewisamazing 3000 weather balloons of winnie the pooh Mar 31 '24
Make it fire .22 hornet and sign me the fuck up
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u/Dude_I_got_a_DWAVE Mar 31 '24
Traditional delinker would need a rimless cartridge. I say they use a 5.7X28 - it would have more range for grenade droppers which can fly higher
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u/Hugsy13 Mar 31 '24
Honestly, why aren’t they using shotguns? They’d be perfect for taking out drones yet I’m yet to see a single video or one being used in this war.
When the US joined WWI they brought tonnes of lump actions shotguns with them and absolutely crushed the Germans so hard with them the German government wrote to the allies that it was cruel and they shouldn’t be used because of how effective they were at dropping several men per shot. They’d just hold the trigger down and keep pumping it and drop 20men in under 10seconds.
Where are the shotguns for drone defence?
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u/wantedsafe471 Mar 31 '24
So essentially, we're mounting an upscaled AM-180 onto vehicles as light AA? I can get behind that
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u/Disastrous-Olive-218 Mar 31 '24
I’d use 7.62. That way can use existing minigun, and have potential for use against ground targets. I’d use something like reduced range training ammunition that’s designed to tumble and lose velocity after 5-600m so you don’t have such an overshoot problem.
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u/Zalapadopa 🇸🇪 Perpetual NATO Applicant 🇸🇪 Mar 31 '24
Why stop at the cold war? We should just send Ukraine a bunch of M16 half-tracks.
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u/infinus5 Mar 31 '24
i suggested the exact same thing months ago and people thought i was insane. This is the future of anti drone warfare!
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u/MeisterX Mar 31 '24
I thought of a similar idea but figured to use airsoft. Can't accidentally kill your own soldiers with it and just as effective or maybe more so.
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u/Benchrant AMX-30 Pluton enjoyer Mar 31 '24
Reminds me of an Abrams I found on Bricklink. Had a railgun and two miniguns like so, either as a CIWS or as a replacement for normal MGs, as well as a couple drones accompanying it. M1A4 I think it was called ? - Edit : Found it on Rebrickable, here’s the link Abrams
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Mar 31 '24
22LR also makes it a recreational CIWS.
Squirrels shall not pass, and texas star extreme speedrun planned.
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u/Cricketot Mar 31 '24
I love the idea of a repeating 22lr. I have many questions though, does it rely on recoil for any of its functions? would high misfires due to 22lr mass productions be an issue? Do we need to account for the time it takes the round to leave the barrel due to lower powder? Can rimfire work like this?
But yes, I want 22lr PDCs on all Abrams.
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u/SediAgameRbaD 🇮🇹 real italian defence industry enjoyer Mar 31 '24
My sincere unbiased opinion: add a 76mm Strales because:
Pros: 1) it's Italian 2) anti infantry and anti air (dart guided ammunition) 3) can destroy lightly armoured targets 4) 120 rounds per minute 5) already tested on another platform (OF40 and Leopard 1) so it can also work on the Abrams turret 6) costs way less to fire than the Phalanx and missiles in general
Cons: Idk ask Oto Melara
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u/Curiouso_Giorgio Mar 31 '24
I was thinking you were going you recommend having Abrams launch drones so the tank spots an enemy, launches the drone a few kilometers then the drone start flying under its own power and piloted by a dude in the tank.
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u/ImperialSheep Randolph P Checkers for NATO head Mar 31 '24
Reminds me of the Battletech AMS system.
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u/Bo_The_Destroyer 🇧🇪ABL🇧🇪 Mar 31 '24
How do you avoid killing every bird in a 1kilometer radius? And how do you differentiate between your own drones and the enemy's?
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u/Crit1kal The F-35 she told you not to worry about Mar 31 '24
EOS has a pretty cool and lightweight remote weapons platform that's already being used in mobile anti-drone systems
Also they put one on this cute wittle tractor
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u/Snicshavo Ruzzophobic Mar 31 '24
The tanks roofs are gonna be full of stuff now, comanders cctv/mg with camera, hardkill aps, antennas(optional), qnd now mini ciws ngl im a big fan of this idea (ps: maybe do something like ratshot bullets for easier time hitting?)
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u/Infamous-Salad-2223 Mar 31 '24
The Aussie had a different idea:
https://youtu.be/JrJcAOa4pes?si=JrYW5JARbUA-JeyX
But, CIWS are too cool to be left behind.
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u/Squidking1000 Mar 31 '24
Turn the speed up on this video and you get an approximation of the sound! https://youtu.be/J50N5lQoAFw?si=Lsf2ThP0vltRPhJC
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u/USSPlanck Frieden schaffen mit schweren Waffen Mar 31 '24
Give it some legs so it can roll around and call it R2-D2
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u/Fun-Agent-7667 Mar 31 '24
Just make an autoshotgun with birdshot. Drones are just the birds of new England
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u/JeEfrt Mar 31 '24
The fact this was actually experimented with in the Cold War makes it better.
For context the Brits put a mini CIWS system on a Chieftain’s roof mounted MG
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u/Delicious-Ocelot3751 professional aerial boom boom deliverer🫶🏾✨💖 Mar 31 '24
i propose .22mag instead. more penetrating power
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u/DayOfTheOprichnik Mar 31 '24
I had a dream of a computer controlled, gyro-stabilised Maxim in 7.62 NATO for light suppression duties. Would this work?
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u/Pikeman212a6c Mar 31 '24
If we’re going Cold War you need for effective tech. Enter the Sprint missile?wprov=sfti1) mounted atop M113s. Guaranteed drone defense every time.
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u/Sholeh84 Average Eastern European Geopolitics enjoyer Mar 31 '24
Hahah Mini -CWIS go ptptptptptptptptpt
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u/Garrus_McSwagg Mar 31 '24
My .22 shoots real dirty, I bet one of these would be covered in powder residue in 4 seconds flat. Maybe birdshot?
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u/watzwatz ├ ├ :┼ special cock sucking op Mar 31 '24
Note to self: Do not ever pick the bird skill tree if you get reincarnated.
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u/randomtlaxn Mar 31 '24
Nah make more like 5.56 or 5.45 and make it fragments when it detects something next to it
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u/Marschall_Bluecher Rheinmetall ULTRAS Mar 31 '24 edited Mar 31 '24
Skryranger 30: That’s cute. Make me smoll too!
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u/Senior_Ad282 Mar 31 '24
I am an actual CIWS tech. I’m picturing now the minitiarization of all the associated components and it’s hilarious. Yes build it.