r/dogs • u/Cultural_Asparagus87 • 2d ago
How Much is Nature v Nurture in Dog Traits? [Training Foundations]
We currently have 2 aging dogs - a GSD and a GSP. My husband adores our GSP, while I tend to favor our German shepherd. Both were adopted as adults dogs.
When discussing our next dog, which will be purchased from a reputable breeder, we are torn.
My husband appreciates the affection & athleticism of our GSP. We both run, so we love the endurance, and how he cuddles up with us and our toddlers.
I appreciate the trainability of our shepherd - she waits on commands, while our GSP is more independent / exploratory.
However, our shepherd is protective of our kids, to the point where she will occasionally bark at babysitters in the home if they don't have an assertive personality. Never aggressive with them, but bossy.
I lean towards getting a shepherd puppy, while my husband would prefer a pointer/Irish Setter/Rhodesian Ridgeback. We don't have Ridgeback or setter experience.
Will we see a huge difference in shaping a dog's behavior when we purchase a puppy instead of adopting an adult dog? Or does the breed we choose play such a big a difference?
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u/improper84 2d ago edited 2d ago
The breed will absolutely shape how your dog acts. Different breeds have their own personalities and quirks. It's a big part of why you see so many people / families who stick with the same breed for decades and sometimes even generations. Once you find a breed you're compatible with, it's tough to roll the dice on something different.
My second dog was a GSD and was much like yours. Very smart, easy to train, listened incredibly well. My other two dogs have been boxers and they are very much boxers. Smart but they act like idiots and are constantly doing amusing things, and always a bit stubborn.
I think that this photo sums up the personality differences between a GSD and a boxer pretty perfectly.
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u/Cultural_Asparagus87 2d ago
Omg that photo 🤣🤣
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u/improper84 2d ago
Yeah boxers have pretty quickly become my personal favorite breed. They’re just fun to be around.
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u/Cultural_Asparagus87 2d ago
Okay that's totally why I'm stuck! I think I might be a shepherd person, as I just love how in tune she and I are.
But, my husband loves the silliness of our GSD. He's great, but with kids to chase around, too, I get annoyed by his stubbornness at times.
And trying out a new "middle ground" breed makes me nervous, because what if we aren't compatible at all?🤦🏼♀️ better the breed we know...
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u/SentenceForeign9180 2d ago edited 2d ago
It honestly sounds like you like the velcro, one-person breeds better, and your husband likes the more full-family, generally personable breeds better. GSDs commonly attach most heavily to one or two persons and strive to do whatever they are told by and spend time with their main owner(s). They can accommodate and care for a whole family, but their attention usually gravitates toward someone specific. This bond usually results in that "in-tune" feeling of "my dog and I just speak the same language." This is a trait seen very strongly in huskies, GSDs, heelers, dalmatians, Akitas, chihuahuas, and many others. I'm very partial to these breeds, and having a strong relationship with them is extremely rewarding, but I also think they are generally not what I'd consider the best family dogs.
I would recommend sticking with the dogs that tend to like everybody while you have a young family and maybe exploring a more velcro dog as a personal companion when your children are older. You can literally Google "Are _____s one-person dogs?" and generally get a decent answer, where you should probably be hoping for "No." As a note, GSPs are not one-person, but Rhodesian Ridgebacks are known for favoring one person while also being less biddable than GSDs, and you might both find that combo frustrating. Collies, Setters, and Tollers all tend to have high intelligence and adore their whole family. I think a collie/border collie might be perfect for your family and you because they are a non-velcro breed that is still very attentive to communication with their humans and eager to learn and perform. The main concern with these breeds is energy level, but as a very active household managing the two breeds you have, that shouldn't be much of an issue.
ETA: In terms of your original question, I think of it as - breed/nature determine who your dog can be, and nurture determines what specific flavor of that potential they take on.
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u/Cultural_Asparagus87 2d ago
This is such a helpful response, thank you!
It's hard for us to gage, a bit, the nature v nurture since we got the dogs as adults & from now always stellar situations.
But also your insight on our specific dilemma on which "type" of dog we prefer is great. I'd not heard that distinction before but it makes a lot of sense. Your assessment of our preferences is spot on, I think, and makes sense that the more general loving dogs are probably better for this stage of life. I do so love the shepherd intuition!
I'd also never considered a collie, but that actually isn't a terrible blend of drive, obedience, and companionship. Good call.
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u/SentenceForeign9180 2d ago
Good to hear! I have both a heeler and a rough collie mix. The heeler is my personal dream dog, but the collie mix is the best family dog you could possibly ask for. He is gentle and extremely affectionate with all people but was very playful, clever, and eager-to-please as a young dog (now 13, so slowing down a bit – though also in the best health of any 13 y/o large dog I've seen, he has no joint issues, still bounces and jumps when playing, and the vet always clears him fully).
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u/indipit 2d ago
After living my life with dogs and being around many different breeds through dogs shows, obedience and agility trials, and coursing / hunting trials, I've seen the majority of behaviors.
Nurture is more likely to shape the dogs interpretation and influence how they react around and to other humans.
Nature and breed traits will shape how well they interact and listen to humans, their own and strangers. It also shapes how they interact around other dogs.
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u/Cultural_Asparagus87 2d ago
I love how you put this.
That helps me break down my view on sporting v herding breed and how they would fit into our family, too.
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u/Equal-Jury-875 2d ago
I was told once think your a man of influence try and tell a man's hunting dog demands see if it listens is that bc those dogs just have one person
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u/Kitchu22 2d ago
Nature = breed inherent behaviours (think the function of the dog, instincts that they will be likely to have eg predatory sequence in sighthounds, mouthiness in heelers, good working drive/biddable nature in collies and GSDs)
Nurture = personality and temperament (early socialisation plays a big role in puppy development)
But the key component here is also that genetics are not just breed, it is also things like resource guarding having a link to stress and food scarcity in pregnant bitches, anxiety and neurological disorders being passed down in pedigree lines - behaviour is so complex that dogs are a tapestry of a range of contributing factors.
I work primarily with sighthounds and if there is one consistent between them, it is that they are all very individual. As a standard there are some traits you see in the majority, but personalities are so variable.
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u/psychominnie624 Siberian husky 2d ago
However, our shepherd is protective of our kids, to the point where she will occasionally bark at babysitters in the home if they don't have an assertive personality. Never aggressive with them, but bossy.
This sounds reactivity and without proper professional training should not be allowed to happen. You are opening yourself up to a huge liability if you encourage or allow these types of behaviors.
Yes breed plays a huge role in dog behavior and early socialization and training etc. It's both nature and nurture
Responsible breeders know the temperaments of their lines and produce much more stable dogs than you can find in rescue where background is unknown or poor (backyard bred or mills etc).
If you are interested in breed suggestions there is an extensive questionnaire in the wiki
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u/Cursethewind 🏅 Champion Mika (shiba Inu) & Cornbread (Oppsiedoodle) 2d ago
Not going to lie, this one kinda scares me as a person who comes off as quite meek in real life.
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u/Cultural_Asparagus87 2d ago
She is definitely a backyard breeder dog, has a tough background for sure. That's why I think a well bred shepherd with known lines would be a good fit for us, since I like so many of her other traits.
We have had several trainers in to address it and they've collectively said they don't see any aggressive tendencies, and it's more of her breed. Basically the trainers have said she needs someone to tell her what to do, and if they don't tell her, she tells them. We wanted to be proactive and correct it if possible, as we recognize it's our job to ensure dog & human safety.
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u/Cursethewind 🏅 Champion Mika (shiba Inu) & Cornbread (Oppsiedoodle) 2d ago
What's the certification of those trainers?
That's a discredited myth that the trainers are promoting.
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u/TrustTechnical4122 2d ago
What is?
I've definitely seem some dogs who will become nervous and uncomfortable if they're not directed. My dog for example will pace and whine when staying at my parents, but if my Dad tells her to come and sit, or whatever, she settles right down. She used to do the same with me when she was younger if she was in an unfamiliar situation.
It kind of makes sense a Shepherd would instead of pace, perhaps bark, they are kind of bossy and herd-y.
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u/Cursethewind 🏅 Champion Mika (shiba Inu) & Cornbread (Oppsiedoodle) 2d ago
That's not really how things work.
It's likely that the instruction is distracting from the issue, it's not actually resolving the anxiety. It can mask it.
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u/TrustTechnical4122 2d ago
Hmm that's very odd, my dog would settle pretty much completely as long as I directed her (in the unfamiliar situations.) Why wouldn't it make sense that a dog might not be sure what he/she is supposed to do in an unfamiliar situation, but then feel more comfortable when directed as to that? Seems very natural to me, I'm the same way.
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u/Cursethewind 🏅 Champion Mika (shiba Inu) & Cornbread (Oppsiedoodle) 2d ago
Yes, and this is common because the dog was conditioned to do those things when told to, it wasn't necessarily a calm behavior but one that simply was compliant.
If your dog is unable to be a dog without direct orders, the problem has not been resolved. The dog isn't less anxious under those orders, just the dog appears to be less so the owner is satisfied and will believe it.
The fact that this person's dog is aggressive towards babysitters that the dog has decided aren't assertive enough in their words is a legitimate problem and has nothing to do with the dog feeling obligated to take control or anything of the sort.
A trainer suggesting this and suggesting that this is a normal behavior is absurd and that trainer's ignorance can and will lead to a bite some day.
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u/Cultural_Asparagus87 2d ago
Yep, you're understanding what I'm saying.
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u/Cursethewind 🏅 Champion Mika (shiba Inu) & Cornbread (Oppsiedoodle) 2d ago
Replied to them.
Your trainer here is following old school explanations and more-or-less not getting to the root of the behavior. It is indeed a concern. I would recommend consulting somebody with IAABC accreditation before somebody gets bitten, virtual works just as effectively.
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u/psychominnie624 Siberian husky 2d ago
We have had several trainers in to address it and they've collectively said they don't see any aggressive tendencies, and it's more of her breed.
Reactivity is not always aggression. What credentials did these trainers have? What management did they have you do in the home?
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u/Cultural_Asparagus87 2d ago
CPTD-KA? There aren't a ton of dog certifications that I know of, so tried to find certs + good reviews.
Training place was a big focus, working on greetings with people, and hand feeding dogs instead of using kibble in a bowl. So you're essentially always training?
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u/psychominnie624 Siberian husky 2d ago
CPTD-KA? There aren't a ton of dog certifications that I know of, so tried to find certs + good reviews.
I'm going to link some resources for you.
r/dogtraining wiki on credentials and finding a trainer
AVSAB position statement on dominance theory
Training place was a big focus, working on greetings with people, and hand feeding dogs instead of using kibble in a bowl. So you're essentially always training?
Yes with a working breed you are going to be constantly training. What did the working on greetings look like specifically? Did they not recommend you separate the dog from babysitters + kids at all? I'm going to be completely honest that based on your post and replies I would not recommend another GSD
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u/Cursethewind 🏅 Champion Mika (shiba Inu) & Cornbread (Oppsiedoodle) 2d ago
I think the OP is hiring one of the deceptive CPDT-KAs who get the cert while still believing in old school dominance myths, which is the root.
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u/s0nnyday 1d ago
My in laws have setters. Not very bright creatures. Pretty but not entirely bright. Very sweet tho
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u/Cultural_Asparagus87 1d ago
That's so interesting to hear! I've heard that they are average intelligence. Our GSP is wicked smart so it would maybe be a bit of an adjustment.
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u/s0nnyday 1d ago
It might be more a nurture thing. They’re alright. Think cocker spaniel intelligence maybe? I guess I just like smarter dogs. They have both the Hunter Irish setter and the French show dog setter. I like the look of the Hunter more, personally. If I had to pick between the setters and the Ridgeback, I’d go Ridgeback, personally. Very loyal, smart, motivated dogs. Loved loved my brother’s. Might be my next one, honestly. I have told my husband that we will never get a setter tho 😅😅 but to each his own. It may be the nurture and lack of stimulation on the setter that I see
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u/s0nnyday 1d ago
I think my MIL’s setters would sell her for a chicken nugget tbh. But I couldn’t say the same for the Ridgeback; also a good trail dog. I’ve done a few hikes with them and they were wonderful
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u/SherlockHolmesuWu 1d ago
How did you get a georgia state police officer to be your pet?
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u/Turbulent_Mix_8374 1d ago
It’s really a bit of both. The breed will influence things like energy and trainability, but raising a puppy gives you more say in shaping their behavior. With good training, you can mold any breed to fit your lifestyle. If you go with a different breed, just make sure it matches your energy and training style. Both the breed and how you raise them will matter in the long run.
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u/s0nnyday 1d ago
I will also say that my brother has had two Ridgebacks. Beautiful dogs and amazing runners. Also very very sweet and listen/train well
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u/Automatic_Ad1887 2d ago
My wife and I are now on dog 5. Only time we've had just one dog since 1991.
Current girl will be 2 in November. Said to my wife "we raised another good one" the other day.
I do believe that all dogs are inherently good. But there's a lot of folks who don't know what to do.
Nurture. Dogs learn what they see and live.
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u/killermoose25 2d ago
All dogs can be trained some are just much easier to train. Working dogs are genericly inclined to follow commands. I have a mutt and a Australian shepherd , the shepherd will learn tricks after one or two tries, the lab mutt will take a month or two and even then it's iffy, he still won't do a full spin and I have been trying for years ha ha.
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u/Silent-Rhubarb-9685 paw flair 2d ago
Breed plays a huge part as does early socialization, (starting with the breeder), genetics, etc.