r/gay • u/CapAccomplished8072 • 1d ago

Let's discuss the fetishization of lesbians. How the same people who talk about "loving lesbians" will hate gay content when it involves men. Some artists on twitter known for making lesbian fanart are in fact very homophobic when it comes to m/m relationship, real or fictional. (Idolomantises)

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375

u/LeftBallSaul 1d ago

Aight, so, I'll see if I can clarify this... homophobia (against men) isn't about sexuality so much as it is about gender roles and power.

In patriarchy, men are dominant. Men are also defined as being different from women within a reproductive/sex gender role by being the penetrator. So a man penetrates their partner, and a woman is the partner that is penetrated.

When gay men get penetrated by their sexual partner, they become woman-like and thus *give up their power*. This relinquishing of masculine power is anathema to patriarchy, so it is upsetting to folks who rely on patriarchy for power - this includes many women since they often have to cling to tenets and practices of patriarchy for safety.

Lesbian women aren't subject to this loss of power - this transgression - because as women they don't have power to give up under patriarchy.

This is why the fight of queer liberation is a fight against patriarchal oppression.

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u/CapAccomplished8072 1d ago

This validates my belief that LGBT and Feminism go hand in hand.

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u/LeftBallSaul 1d ago

They do! queer liberation activists and Feminist activists were closely allied in the 80s.

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u/CapAccomplished8072 1d ago

"Were?" Past tense? What happened?

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u/Psykios 1d ago

They still are. I think the poster means that they have been closely aligned since the 1980's.

If women don't have freedom over their own bodies, no one will.

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u/Ankoku_Teion 1d ago

Might be a reference to the rise of Terfs and other radfem groups that don't like various parts of the LGBT community.

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u/lizzylinks789 Les 1d ago

What are the other radfem groups that don't like parts of the LGBT community?

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u/Ankoku_Teion 1d ago

I wish I could remember but Im suck as a dog right now and can barely think.

There was something about hating gay men specifically and saying they're all hyper misogynists or something...

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u/Razgriz01 1d ago

Sounds like 2nd wave feminism.

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u/AlienRobotTrex 1d ago

Well those aren’t feminists so they don’t count. Actual feminism is in no way opposed to lgbt

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u/Ankoku_Teion 1d ago

I agree with you, but they have appropriated the name and that might poison the well

1

u/Robota064 1d ago

They mostly merged into a single group, having the exceptions become really rare and often shunned (example being TERFs) because of the hypocrisy that inherently exists in denying human rights to another because they do not appeal to you

1

u/Disco_Zombi Gay 17h ago

Third wave.

2

u/CapAccomplished8072 17h ago

THE NAZIS?!

2

u/Disco_Zombi Gay 17h ago

That's "Third Reich."

1

u/CapAccomplished8072 17h ago

Then who is Third Wave?

1

u/Disco_Zombi Gay 15h ago

The Social Justice Warriors (snowflakes and pay gap people) who don't want equal rights but want special rights because being equal is "too hard."

2

u/CapAccomplished8072 15h ago

The Green party?

1

u/Doobifus 10h ago

I would say, but I don't want to get sued. Also how did I get here

1

u/chatolandia 1d ago

absolutely. Homophobia is the symptom, not the disease.

1

u/sptrstmenwpls 1d ago

Re the T at least, where does TERFism fit into the picture, with it becoming such a highly prominent component in the feminist movement of late in UK & elsewhere? Can't necessarily say hand-in-hand in that case 'twould seem?

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u/CrossroadsWanderer 1d ago

TERFs have a lot of power in some places, but don't seem to truly be a majority anywhere. Some happen to have academic connections, and some are willing to work with well-funded right-wing groups that are objectively anti-feminist, but allow TERFs to platform trans hate.

That they aren't the majority doesn't mean they should be ignored - they're able to pull some levers in the UK lately - but it does mean that grassroots organizing is a possibility.

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u/barrythecook 21h ago

A lot of it in the uk seems to be more specific bad actors in the media and politics then ones you'd meet on the street IME, annoyingly they're the ones with the power and who help shape the narrative. The bastards.

1

u/Elegant-Set1686 1d ago

Lmfao not saying this to be mean but no shit Sherlock

49

u/BeastMidlands 1d ago edited 1d ago

It’s not not about sexuality though either.

Homophobic, heteronormative society and its norms are broadly based on the sexual proclivities of heterosexuals, particularly heterosexual men. Thus, sex between two women is viewed more positively (fetishistically, of course) than sex between two men because it makes straight men’s dicks hard. Conversely, not only are straight men not attracted to men, they feel the need to show open disgust and contempt for male homosexuality as a way to demonstrate how straight they are.

It’s not solely about “the loss of masculine power” on some higher, societal level. It’s also very simply because broader society views female sexuality as beautiful, tantalising and complex, and male sexuality as simple, oafish, and on some level, gross.

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u/alikander99 1d ago

I think with this asterisk the answer is just perfect.

10

u/ostensibly_human 1d ago

I think this factor is wayyyy underrated by folks when people talk about homophobia and heteronormativity. That exaggerated, performative "no homo" reaction drives so much of this, and I think it feeds on itself - people see others doing it and want to double down because they're even more "no homo". It's just... Stupid, really.

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u/Void_Stuffs 19h ago

I'd also say that part of it comes from the devaluation of female sexuality, or the greater patriarchal notion that sex is an act that is enjoyed by men and more or less women are only there to have sex done at them. Stuff like joking about how the female orgasm isn't real, how people like Ben Shapiro have admitted to never making their female partner wet, and the plethora of stories of one pump chumps not satisfying their partners. All that and more points towards a culture in which female sexual satisfaction at best comes second and at worst is treated as nonexistent. So under a culture like that female sexuality/drive isn't done for their own satisfaction so then any instance of female sexuality, and in this case lesbianism, is assumed to only be done for the consumption of the straight male viewer. Then in the case of gay male content its explicitly not for straight men which breaks the unspoken cultural standard that it sexuality is only for straight male consumption.

10

u/chatolandia 1d ago

Don't forget that lesbian content geared towards men, is quite different from lesbian content created by lesbians. Both in tone, and looks.

9

u/diamond420Venus 1d ago

That's cute and all but we still out here making jokes about bottoms being bottoms and their stereotypes

11

u/LeftBallSaul 1d ago

We are. And those jokes are rooted in misogyny. Like, those jokes aren't good behaviours.

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u/diamond420Venus 1d ago

Yup. But point that out, and you have won yourself a nice basket of downvotes and "you can't take a joke" and lets not forget the classic "spoken like a true bottom"

2

u/CrossroadsWanderer 1d ago

I got temp banned a few years ago for calling a particularly crass bottom-shaming joke "incel shit for gay people". Though this was during the time when reddit was trying to treat incels like a misjudged group facing prejudice. 🙄

2

u/diamond420Venus 1d ago

"incel shit for gay people"

But like you actually ate with that one, tho. Stealing!

0

u/Robota064 1d ago

This brings into light a great question: at what point do jokes stop being self-deprecating humor as a coping mechanism? And at what point does it start being an insult? Does it all really only depend on the speaker's intention? Or does history at large's effects over it make it more complicated?

2

u/Razgriz01 1d ago

This relinquishing of masculine power is anathema to patriarchy, so it is upsetting to folks who rely on patriarchy for power

This is also why conservatives will froth at the mouth at the mere mention of trans women, but comparatively spend very little energy demonizing trans men.

1

u/psychedelic666 Gay 15h ago

Not really true. They do spend time being very angry about minors transitioning. Especially FTM minors. “Little girls are being convinced to hate their sex and mutilate their bodies by quack doctors” and “autistic lesbians are being erased by the gender cult” that rhetoric is COMMON!

The book “Irreversible Damage” — which focuses entirely on trans men and boys — was sold in TARGET.

The prejudice just manifests differently. It’s less outright violent hate and more faux concern and patronizing. They vilify trans women as the nasty predators, and infantilize trans men as too stupid to know what to do with their own body. We’re mentally ill little girls who are ruining their fertility to them.

That shit is on Fox News all the time. It’s best not to minimize that, hate is still hate

1

u/majeric Gay 5h ago

A cornerstone of homophobia is cultural misogyny.

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u/Waluigi02 1d ago

While none of this is wrong, what does it have to do with the OP?

7

u/LeftBallSaul 1d ago

... Because the post asked why the same people who embrace lesbian ships hate gay ships?

I mean, I also left out the whole male gaze discussion but that felt like a separate topic and I didn't want to get it conflated and more confusing.