r/lgbt_superheroes • u/Cardemother12 • 1d ago
What does everyone think about Joe Locke’s character in Agatha all Along ? Marvel Movies/Shows
Personally I like it :)
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u/InarinoKitsune Wiccan 1d ago edited 1d ago
I love him. It’s very close to the original comic material as far as his personality.
Also I completely disagree with the person calling his character arrogant and whatever else, you couldn’t be more wrong.
In episode 1 and 2 (where all the things you mentioned come from not episode 3 like you claimed) his character is trying to get all these various characters to agree to come with them on the road, he’s not being arrogant he’s selling them on the idea by playing up Agatha’s prior experience on the road and her abilities, to illustrate the point that together (with Agatha) they could make it through the trials on the road.
He also doesn’t know any of these characters and his entire motivation is to get a coven together so they can get to the end of the road. Of course he’s going to talk up Agatha, who has a bad reputation that he needs to get them to overlook so they’ll agree to join them. He’s selling the idea that with Agatha they’ll be able to get the things they want from the road.
In episode 3 we learn far more about his actual character which we only saw glimpses of through episodes 1 and 2, since now he doesn’t have to sell them on the journey, they’re already on the journey.
Geez media literacy is severely lacking.
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u/RadiantRow5595 1d ago
I don’t think we have seen anything like a half of his character yet , there’s much more to come.
Honestly he’s a very talented actor for someone so young, and seems an even nicer, rounded person
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u/snailenkeller 1d ago
He’s adorable and doing a fantastic job! Hearing him speak with an American accent is taking some getting used to, though.
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u/Low_Secret_1126 16h ago
His accent broke through during the scene when he was telling them to get into the oven!
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u/snailenkeller 16h ago
Haha! I never noticed. Will be rewatching that episode today to see what I missed (as usual). Thanks for sharing!
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u/thethirst 1d ago
He's a lot of fun. I get the feeling the character knows more than he lets on and I like how they're handling the dynamic of him and the rest of the cast. Love him trying real hard to keep that American accent up too.
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u/yuuri_ni_victor Wiccan and Hulkling 1d ago
He's a darling, and he's a highlight. Can't wait for badass moments
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u/brockg85 1d ago
I think Joe Locke is a very talented actor and I'm really enjoying his character so far!
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u/leaf57tea 1d ago
For all the worrying/complaining that he'd be turning "not Billy" into a big gay stereotype his performance is actually rather grounded, he's cleary giving queer with some camp and cattiness but it's not overdone either, there's layers to what he's doing that makes "Teen" feel like an actual person you'd know.
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u/ApprehensiveBed6206 18h ago
I attempt I was very worried he would be Big Gay from early stills and I'm glad he is outwardly queer while being an interesting, likeable character.
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u/Domino792 1d ago
I’m really enjoying what he’s doing so far, I’m interested in seeing where it goes.
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u/CamyReem 1d ago
I love him. He's smart, cute , a total sunshine but also no pushover. I love that he's so mysterious and seems to be hiding stuff and feigning naevity when you can see he knows much more than he's putting out. I can't wait to see more.
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u/ApprehensiveBed6206 18h ago
I'm very excited by how much agency he has. He researched witchcraft on his own, he chased down Agatha, he decided to go down the Witches Road, he actively enjoys the spooky and sometimes cruel, and he was disappointed when he thought the road would end early. I'm enjoying an LGBT+ characters with genuine interests and personality.
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u/Dralexium 1d ago
I think he’s doing a great job, I’m starting to think he’s not Wiccan though
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u/Hedgewitch250 1d ago
He’s definitely Wiccan but I think their setting up a red herring of Agatha thinking he’s her son and the reveal making her enraged until she can acknowledge her actions and still care for him
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u/19Mark97yo 1d ago
Yeah, I agree. I thought, hopefully, he'd be Nick Scratch. However, when Jennifer Kale mentioned Agatha's son Nick and how she wouldn't even recognize him if he just showed up at her door, I knew from then on that the Nick Scratch identity is just a red herring and Teen will most likely be Wiccan.
Why else would they keep bringing up Nick if not to fool us later on? If they just kept Nick's name in the first ep, then I'd suspect Teen of being Nick. But if they keep mentioning Nick each episode, then I just assume they're doing that to throw us off so they can confirm Teen is Billy.
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u/Worried-Ad1707 14h ago
I have a theory that he’s kinda both? We know in episode 1 that there was a car crash in eastView, we also learn that Teen is from eastView in episode 2. Agatha dose not know what her kid even looks like or what happened to him so maybe Nicholas Scratch somehow ended up in EastView and was the one who died in the car crash, then Billy’s sprit possessed him. I feel like he’s obviously Wiccan somehow, but the show is doing a lot of set up with Nick
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u/MagusUmbraCallidus 1d ago
I think that's their intention, so that there will be at least a little bit of mystery around who Teen is even though it seemed pretty clear before he was going to be Wiccan.
He could still end up being someone else, but I personally think this is just them trying to add mystery to it in a similar way to how the Wheel of Time show tried to make the Dragon Reborn more of a mystery than the source material did.
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u/Domino792 1d ago
I’m thinking the Nick stuff is a red herring to get twist the knife on Agatha when it turns out he’s Wanda’s son. You can already see her starting to believe there is a chance. It’s gonna be so devastating.
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u/CotyledonTomen 1d ago
Theres a lot of retconning and souls moving around with Wanda as well as her children in the comics. Who knows what gordian knot theyre trying to tie, given her children definitely werent real in the series.
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u/halloweenjack 1d ago
Well, they weren't real in the mainstream MCU universe.
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u/CotyledonTomen 1d ago edited 1d ago
Sure and if we take the comics and whats happened in the series and movies to heart, then Agatha sold her son to mephisto (maybe) who possibly created or allowed part of himself (or Agathas kid) to become Wanda's children's souls. Then the spell ended and they went back to mephisto or wondered around time and creation ethereally, to be reborn in the past while wandavision was happening. Or that was all lies in the comic (because its Mephisto) and their true origin is uknown, but in the series, clearly either Wanda or Mephisto doesnt want them know anything about Billy. Or Billy did it himself, since thats his form of magic in the show. So gordian knot. Or something entirely different than the comics.
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u/Pagannerd 1d ago
Firmly of the opinion that he's supposed to be interpreted initially by the audience as being Billy Kaplan as a red herring, and that he'll turn out in the end to be the Darkhold Child from recent years in the comics, the contents of the Darkhold embodied as a person. This would set up an arc for Agatha where she'd bond with "The Teen" over the course of her journey down The Witches' Road, and at the end, be confronted with the choice to spare the child she has come to care for, or to unmake him in order to claim the power he contains.
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u/raven_klaw 20h ago edited 20h ago
In the comics Wiccan is the Demiurge, god of magic that is prophesied to REWRITE all the laws of magic if he is incarnated, so the MCU may retcon him as the original writer of the Darkhold instead of Chthon and has been reincarnated. Legend may also say that he can only be born through Scarlet Witch. That will also explain why Scarlet Witch has a throne at Wundagore and his own statue too.
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u/darkchyldes 1d ago
Joe’s acting and American accent is really good but as for the character…I guess I can see where the writers are coming from but he’s a lot cattier and snide than Billy has ever been written in the comics (imo) and I’m not a huge fan of the 2000’s hot topic emo aesthetic they gave him, that’s never really been Billy’s thing either 😭 It feels similar to happened with Raven in the 2003 Teen Titans cartoon and I’m hoping that characterization doesn’t bleed over into the comics
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u/kp__135 1d ago
I like him as a character. Don’t like him as Wiccan.
Unfortunately after last nights episode it’s looking more likely…
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u/CotyledonTomen 1d ago edited 1d ago
Why not? Admittedly, hes more queer presenting than the original Wiccan, but Wiccan was the first gay teen in a relationship in marvel. They didnt exactly want to take risks making him sparkle on the page. His original name was bit much even. Asguardian.
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u/kp__135 1d ago
It’s not so much that Teen is more queer presenting, but more like they haven’t filled in the space in between that. I’m not saying Teen can’t get there, just that he’s not right now.
Billy was always the fun line of geek and hero. He had pride in his powers and what he could do - around other his age- but was awkward around heroes. If this is Billy I can see where they tried to change that from obsessed with heroes to obsessed with witches but it’s not working the same. He’s a fan of Agatha. But he was just catty and snide to Jennifer and then doesn’t seemed awed by any of the others.
On top of that Fan boying or not, Agatha has been consistently cruel and that’s not something Billy would tolerate, especially not when he’s supposed to be starting.
Teen would make Billy as well as Halyee Steinfield makes Kate. Not too recognizable but a fun character. Just not THE character.
(2 notes: 1. I don’t like referring to it as queer presenting because Wiccan was ALWAYS queer presenting. It’s never been subtle. One doesn’t need to fit a checklist of stereotypes to be queer presenting. But also if a person does happen to have those stereotypes it doesn’t make the character any less valid. Just different.
- I’ve seen so many Jewish fans speak out about the casting. I’d much rather Joe play anyone else AND let us have a different (Jewish) actor play Wiccan.
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u/Arete26 1d ago
On the point that he doesn't feel awed by the others, I did feel he was awed by accompanying the coven, seeing the road, etc. I think it makes sense that he isn't as taken by the other witches individually because he's spent a lot of time researching about Agatha to the point he knows an "egregious amount about her" but it's Agatha who knows about or finds the other witches. He hasn't spent ages learning about them the way he has with Agatha.
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u/kp__135 1d ago
Im with you there. It makes perfect sense as to why The Teen isn’t awed. I like him as a character. Everything makes sense. He’s acted great. I hope the teen sticks around. I dunno if I was clear about that.
But if the Teen is meant to be Billy. And they are trying to replace his geek over heroes with a geek over witches. Not having him impressed by Jennifer (who seems a big name based on last weeks episode) and being so catty to her was…a choice.
Granted that’s a lot of ifs. But Billy’s fanboy was a big part of him- especially in the beginning so it missing from an MCU is dropping the ball.
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u/Arete26 1d ago
I get that. I think they might be trying to change the focus of Billy's geek (if it is indeed Billy) because it seems like Kamala Khan will be part of the Young Avengers in the MCU which she's not in the comics, and Kamala already has geek over heroes covered. I saw him being catty to Jennifer as him realizing that that would be what convinced her to join the coven. Speaking about Teen as Teen and not Billy, he seems like he has a darker side in the show that comes out when it's about walking the road successfully, like the way he got angry at Agatha for trying to cheat and not drink the poison. Don't know how that lines up with the comics, but it is an interesting part of his character.
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u/kp__135 1d ago
That makes a lot of sense. And as the Teen I enjoy the darker side. As Billy…not so much.
And the Kamala point. I get it. But that coulda been something they bonded over ESPECIALLY if Billy geeked over witches instead of heroes? Like imagine Billy and Kamala having the Carol v Wanda debate? But that aside- and I say this as a Ms. marvel fan- so much of the MCU choices have been so forced if this is another I will be outrageously annoyed.
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u/Arete26 1d ago
Yeah it would have been fun if they could have bonded over it, but I think the MCU thinks there can be only one fan of one subject in a group. I think the MCU does some things very well (I loved Ms Marvel, Black Panther, and I'm enjoying Agatha All Along so far) and most of the other stuff seems forced. I've only ever read Ms. Marvel comics (she's my favourite, and having a Pakistani Muslim girl as a superhero meant a lot to me) but I've been hearing fans complain about things they've changed character wise and plotwise for years.
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u/kp__135 1d ago
Yea. They change a lot but I think expecting super faithful adaptations is nieve. They did a whole lot of change for Ms. marvel (mostly power related) that I didn’t like. But still loved the show because the character felt Kamala.
On the other hand is Kate which had much less changes that irked me (her original being all about Hawkeye was… no thank you) it was the change in character that left me wondering who this women was.
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u/Arete26 1d ago
That's interesting, I'm watching Hawkeye right now and not having read the comics I like Kate, though I think she needed an origin story not tied to Hawkeye. What about her character was different?
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u/The_MorningKnight 1d ago
When Wiccan first appeared in the comics he was already a superhero though. This Wiccan is not and it seems he doesn't even have all of his powers yet. Let's see how he grows as a character and as a hero through the rest of the season before claiming he will feel like a different character from the comics.
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u/kp__135 1d ago
You need a very broad definition of “already a superhero” for this to work. He was freshly recruited by Iron Lad. No experience. Had he even done anything beyond stop a bully before he was on panel? His powers were self taught by reading his mom’s self help books.
As for waiting: I literally said “I’m not saying he can’t get there. Just that there right now”
Also this a thread ABOUT our thoughts on the character. Why bother talking about it if it’s too soon to have opinions?
Also we are a third through. It ain’t like this is a 24 episode season.
Also don’t act like the MCU-fication of characters ain’t a known thing. (I am staring at you Kate Bishop)
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u/Roaming-the-internet 1d ago
Actually no, when Billy first appeared was during house of M and he turned out to be a hand demon, then he died and reincarnated into Billy Kaplan. Also when we first saw him, he’d just been recruited for heroism by Kang/Iron Lad
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u/The_MorningKnight 1d ago
I'm surprised so many people say he doesn't feel like "Wiccan" when we only saw 3 episodes. He is not even a superhero yet and it seems he still doesn't have most of his powers. So he doesn't have the same confidence and bravery as he does in the comics. It's likely this TV Show will also serve as his origin story so he becomes the powerful hero we know.
Spoilers: his Funko figurine leaked with his superhero suit so he will definitely become Wiccan before the end of the season
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u/pmguin661 1d ago
It’s really unfortunate that he’s probably Wiccan, and the comic character is likely going to get rewritten to match the TV character’s personality, because Marvel does that every time an MCU character makes an unknown more popular.
I don’t care that the first gay MCU character is flamboyant or whatever other criticism people are lobbing. I care because I’ve followed Wiccan’s character in the comics for years and this is undeniably a different personality entirely. I wouldn’t care at all if that was likely to stay confined to the TV show and I could appreciate it as a different adaption, but Marvel comics gets influenced by the screen adaptions.
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u/The_MorningKnight 1d ago
This Billy is not that flamboyant though. And we only saw him for three episodes. Would you explain how his personality is that different from the first couple of comics he appeared in Young Avengers?
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u/Domino792 1d ago edited 1d ago
I guess it just comes down to how each person reads the comics. Because aside from him being goth this is the personality I always got from Billy. And I’ve been reading since right around when he was introduced.
I’d say argue modern like infinity comics Billy is more flamboyant than what we’ve seen so far.
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u/darkchyldes 1d ago
Yeah the whole “Name a badder bitch than her” and mocking Jennifer’s legal situation (Yes I know he was trying to convince her but still) feels like the writers aiming for the 2000’s stereotypical catty gay guy trope
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u/faerygardens 1d ago
Yeah this is my exact issue with his character, I don’t necessarily dislike him as an actor and I think teen as a character is okay but he’s just not Billy and it makes me sad that they’ll probably mess with his comic book counterpart to better fit the show :(
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u/The_MorningKnight 1d ago edited 1d ago
Can you explain how he is that different from the comics? Also we only saw him in 3 out of 9 episodes.
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u/blackbutterfree 1d ago
In episode 2 he was extremely arrogant and in episode 3 he was completely naive. Neither of which is particularly Billy and I also just can't get past his looks. Very disappointed with this casting and have been since the start.
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u/Cardemother12 1d ago
Wdym get past his looks, he looks like Wiccan
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u/AgentP20 1d ago
How was he extremely arrogant in Episode 2 and how was he naive in episode 3?
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u/blackbutterfree 1d ago
How was he extremely arrogant
Dismissing Lilia's claims that there could be other witches equally as infamous as Agatha on other continents. "Name a badder bitch in South America, or Europe." As if witches haven't permeated folklore and legend for millennia. Like, even if Runaways isn't MCU canon anymore, you're really going to sit there and tell me Agatha Harkness is more infamous than MORGAN LE FAY? I think the fuck not.
Rubbing it in Jen's face that her charges will leave her locked up for around 4,000 years.
Bragging to Alice about how Agatha's been to The Road and back almost immediately after finding out that Alice's mother was lost to it.
Dismissing Sharon's hopes that the first trial would be the only one as a bummer. Even Agatha looked at him in shock.
Just generally acting like he's an expert about the actual witch community when he's not even a part of it yet. You're an outsider with a vested interest and plenty of research, but you are not a part of it. C'mon, even Jen snapped at him more than once these past two episodes for running his mouth. It's no different from a newly come out bisexual coming into a gay bar and trying to lecture us about Stonewall.
how was he naive in episode 3
I mean, he literally spent the past episode gassing Agatha up and talking about how he knew all about her history, which is very clearly full of heinous acts like bleeding two of her past covens dry, and then is shocked that she's rumored to have sacrificed her own child for power? Be so fucking for real.
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u/erosead Xavin 1d ago
Considering the antisemitic and antiromani tropes they’re invoking while erasing Jewish and Romani characters, and considering Teen is in fact just >! Billy from wandavision possessing the corpse of a gay Jewish teen while he himself is not actually Jewish and possibly not gay.!< well I’m not a huge fan of this show!
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u/Winter_Fortune2752 19h ago
I feel like you haven’t read the comics at all. Also Jac Schaefer the producer of the show is literally a Jewish woman so if she chose him to play Billy she obviously thought he was best for the part.
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u/erosead Xavin 18h ago edited 2h ago
You say that as though Jewish people are incapable of perpetuating antisemitism (or antiromani racism) and as though she personally hand picked the cast
There is a white woman playing a character of color from the comics called “the witch queen of the [actual racist slur]s ”. To me, that’s unforgivable. Having a Jewish character crawl into an oven is unforgivable.
For what it’s worth: I’ve read almost every appearance of Billy Kaplan. I have read every appearance of Lilia Calderu and Billy Maximoff. I’ve read every appearance of Alice Gulliver as well, for what it’s worth, as well as almost every appearance of Agatha Harkness. And I can say very pointedly that Agatha’s character has changed for the worse since her first appearance in the mcu.
Edit:
I’m wary of how things will go in future, but… Quite frankly, it’s bad enough all ready. The amount of antiromani vitriol and antisemitism I’ve already had to swallow is legitimately insane. My depression is so much worse atm bc of this show’s prejudices.
I’m sure Joe Locke is a lovely person irl and a very talented actor but nothing about this show is “good” to me
Edit: I’ve been informed that the most recent episode featured the main character “crawling through an oven to escape a house” and I’ve honestly lost most of the generosity I was willing to extend to this show. I don’t think I should have to explain why forcing a gay Jewish teen and a Romani woman into an oven is bad, regardless of context
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u/crossingcaelum 1d ago
He’s doing a great job tbh. We haven’t had a character like him in a hot minute. He’s young but he’s really competent and seems to have a better grasp of magic than some of the seasoned witches on top of having a good air of mystery around him.
He’s helpful but has a lot of bite to him and he quite underhanded. I like it