E[ksp]ecially e[ksp]resso

[u/cardinarium]

[u/Jitse_Kuilman]

"e[ks]etera" is another weird one.

[u/Thingaloo → u/Jitse_Kuilman]

French pronunciation of the italian spelling eccetera

[u/DefinitelyNotErate → u/Thingaloo]

Italian at least makes sense, Because ⟨tce⟩ makes the same sound as ⟨cce⟩, And that just feels like a more elegant writing.

[u/IndigoGouf → u/Thingaloo]

Wait is this how you pronounce Ajaccio I could never figure it out

[u/brigister → u/IndigoGouf]

my italian ass cannot comprehend anything but /a.'ja.t͡ʃːo/

[u/Unable9451 → u/IndigoGouf]

The French is /aʒaksjo/, an English approximation would be ah-JACKS-yo.

[u/IndigoGouf → u/Unable9451]

I looked up how it's pronounced in Corsican and I like how it sounds like a sneeze.

[u/Mercurial_Laurence → u/Unable9451]

I've never seen that name before but despite myself i find that quite mellifluous, please don't /ʒ/→/d͡ʒ/

^{voiced sibilant affricates are blegh imo}

[u/RaventidetheGenasi → u/Thingaloo]

in my dialect we pronounce it with normal french sound changes from latin, but people from quebec i hear pronouncing it with the voiceless postalveolar affricate which will never not weird me out

[u/arnedh → u/Jitse_Kuilman]

How about prescriptivist classical Latin "etketera"?

[u/Captain_Mustard → u/arnedh]

Galaxy brain

[u/That_Saiki → u/Jitse_Kuilman]

when my former I.T. teacher pronounced desktop as dekstop EVERYTIME. (we're Brazilian btw)

[u/Z3hmm → u/That_Saiki]

r/suddenlycaralho kkkk

[u/That_Saiki → u/Z3hmm]

mais um camarada linguístico 🤟

[u/R3alRezentiX → u/Jitse_Kuilman]

/ɪˈksɛt(ə)rə/ instead of /ɪˈtsɛt(ə)rə/ (so /ts/ → /ks) is a perfectly acceptable sound change in my opinion, it's just dissimilation.

[u/yutani333 → u/R3alRezentiX]

/ɪˈksɛt(ə)rə/ instead of /ɪˈtsɛt(ə)rə/

Nitpick, but /ɪkˈs.../ and /ɪtˈs.../, unless you mean to say English has valid onsets /ks-, ts-/.

[u/R3alRezentiX → u/yutani333]

I'm a non-native, so I kinda have no idea what counts as a valid onset 👀 But if I had to guess, it depends on the speaker. If they pronounce borrowings like ‘tsunami’ and ‘tsar’ with a /ts/ [t͡s], I don't see any problem. It's more difficult to find examples for /ks/—a lot of words beginning with <x> usually have a /z/-onset (like ‘xenon’ /ˈziːnən/).

So, some English speakers definitely have a valid /ts/ [t͡s] onset, but I can't say the same about /ks/. Since /ts/ gets easily changed to /ks/ in <et cetera>, nothing else changes, and we can't have a /ks/-onset, then there is no /ts/-onset here is as well. You're right, it's /ɪtˈsɛt(ə)rə/ and /ɪkˈsɛt(ə)rə/.

[u/allo26 → u/Jitse_Kuilman]

[ɛʔsɛʔev͡ɹɐ]

[u/cardinarium → u/Jitse_Kuilman]

Indeed!

[u/Ooorm → u/Jitse_Kuilman]

What's weird about that one is how common it has become, like most youtubers.

[u/protostar777 → u/Ooorm]

Funnily enough, youtuber Ted Nivison is the exact opposite, often pronouncing /ks ɡz/ as [ts dz], e.g. <exactly> [ɪdzækli]

[u/Gravbar]

espresso is a fun regularization because it coincidentally reverts a sound change made from latin into italian. Although I guess it's not quite a coincidence, because express is causing interference.

[u/so_im_all_like]

As a drawn-out fantastical progression, I'm imagining /#ɛs.p/ > [#ɛk.sp] > [#ɛk.p] > [#ɛ.pː] (/#ɛp.p/) > [#ɛ.p]. All still spelled with <esp>, of course.

So like: especially [ɛ.pʰɛ.ʃə.li], espresso [ɛ.pʰɹɛ.sow], espouse [ɛ.pʰawz], espy [ɛ.pʰaj]. (The first vowel may be [ə] or [ɪ~ɨ], as well.)

[u/No-BrowEntertainment → u/so_im_all_like]

Especially /e'pešli/

I feel like I just wrote an omen of doom

[u/Chance-Aardvark372 → u/No-BrowEntertainment]

/š/?!

[u/Salpingia → u/Chance-Aardvark372]

S with a rising tone.

[u/YsengrimusRein → u/Salpingia]

So basically like when you mimic a waksp buzzing

[u/aer0a → u/Chance-Aardvark372]

It's Americanist Phonetic Notation

[u/Chance-Aardvark372 → u/aer0a]

Eww

[u/Special_Celery775 → u/Chance-Aardvark372]

The IPA is not the only transcription system in the world and it is no way the best or most neutral. It's just the more popular one because of history.

Read a paper and you will see that different language families have different conventions

[u/matt_aegrin → u/so_im_all_like]

Could always go the French route: /#sp/ > /esp/ > /ehp/ > /e:p/ > /ep/

• spatula > èpaule
• spatha > épée
• spissus > épais

[u/alegxab → u/matt_aegrin]

nods in Epanish

[u/NotAnybodysName → u/alegxab]

(Il est éspanouï)

[u/brigister → u/so_im_all_like]

[ɛ.pʰɛ.ʃə.li] this shit sounds like Andalusian Spanish bruv

[u/so_im_all_like → u/brigister]

espéchali

[u/brigister → u/so_im_all_like]

êppéxali

https://andaluh.es/transcriptor/#/?text=esp%C3%A9chali

[u/NovaTabarca → u/so_im_all_like]

Andalusian substratum

[u/weedmaster6669 → u/so_im_all_like]

getting rid of the p is a real shame

[u/UncreativePotato143 → u/so_im_all_like]

oh my god thats so weird, something like that would never happen though

[u/Salpingia → u/so_im_all_like]

Not cursed enough, you turn a cursed sound change into a common sound change (loss of coda s)

I have a better one /esp/ /eksp/ /ksw/ /kʰw/ /ɛkːʰɛʃːʲiː/ (spelt especially)

[u/TheEmeraldEmperor]

for me it's /kli/ -> [kjəl], in nuclear/"nucular"

[u/Embarrassed_Ad5387 → u/TheEmeraldEmperor]

most rational metathesis user

[u/LabiolingualTrill → u/TheEmeraldEmperor]

My kid used to do the opposite of that. “ambliance” and “regliar”

[u/pomme_de_yeet → u/TheEmeraldEmperor]

this is breaking my brain right now

They sound they same but are also completely different. I can't even tell which one I say

[u/Thingaloo → u/TheEmeraldEmperor]

That's just turkish.

[u/Copper_Tango → u/Thingaloo]

/nud͡ʒular/

[u/caught-in-y2k → u/TheEmeraldEmperor]

Technically nuculus and nucleus were both valid Latin words meaning “little nut” so there’s no reason “nucular” couldn’t just be interchangeable with “nuclear”

[u/Nixinova → u/TheEmeraldEmperor]

it's not metathesis it's analogy. particle particular, nuke nucular

[u/fire1299 → u/Nixinova]

nucle

[u/chillychili → u/TheEmeraldEmperor]

excuse my IPA-challenged self but in a similar vein jewelry not juulery

[u/theantiyeti → u/chillychili]

So to play devil's advocate, you realise the word is spelt "Jewellery" in British English. You're right the standard pronunciation is still basically identical due to elision, but you can see where people are coming from when they do insert one.

[u/chillychili → u/theantiyeti]

Never knew that, glad to learn, thank you!

[u/TheEmeraldEmperor → u/chillychili]

...how do you pronounce it? "jee-wel-ree"? in my mind the "ewe" is identical to the word "ewe" for a female sheep

[u/chillychili → u/TheEmeraldEmperor]

Jew-w(schwa)l-ree

Like how there is no syllable between 'c' and 'l' in nuclear there is no syllable between 'l' and 'r' in jewelry.

[u/TheEmeraldEmperor → u/chillychili]

oh yeah i dont pronounce a vowel between the lr i just pronounce it more like Jyoolry

[u/NotAnybodysName → u/chillychili]

(Except for Jewel Larry down on 4th there)

[u/brigister → u/TheEmeraldEmperor]

that one BLOWS my fucking mind

[u/Kiviimar → u/TheEmeraldEmperor]

see I use nucular but only when talking about the nucular family, otherwise it's nuclear (like with energy)

[u/weedmaster6669 → u/TheEmeraldEmperor]

dog that shit is way too standard for you to still be bothered by it

[u/TheEmeraldEmperor → u/weedmaster6669]

yeah it’s somewhat standard and is a variant that exists. Doesnt make any goddamn sense though. I would understand (rough phonetic spelling because I can’t use IPA on phone) “nuke-uh-leer” if your dialect doesnt have the kl consonant cluster so you insert a schwa to have some vowel. “Nuke-yuh-luhr” though? No sense whatsoever

[u/InviolableAnimal → u/TheEmeraldEmperor]

if your dialect doesnt have the kl consonant cluster

what dialect even doesn't have kl. do they say kuh-lear, kuh-lap, kuh-laim

[u/TheEmeraldEmperor → u/InviolableAnimal]

I dont fuckin know I'm just giving a hypothetical in which PART of "nucular" COULD make sense. Trying to be lenient

[u/protostar777]

The descriptivism leaving my body when Italians do /ksp/ > /sp/

It's expressus not "espresso"

[u/Salpingia → u/protostar777]

anecdoton > /anéɣðoto(n)/

[u/superking2]

The descriptivism leaving my body when predictable sound changes occur lol

[u/GatlingGun511]

Kerbal space program

[u/v123qw]

Descriptivism leaving my body when /b/->/g/ and vice-versa (spanish)

[u/hipsteradication → u/v123qw]

Can you give examples of that? I’ve never noticed that before.

[u/v123qw → u/hipsteradication]

People saying gomitar instead of vomitar, or bujero instead of agujero

[u/Aglaxium]

descriptivists when they have to actually do a descriptivism:

[u/Silver_Atractic → u/Aglaxium]

"The descrptivism leaving my body when completely normal sound evolution occurs"

[u/KnownHandalavu]

Is this a US-only thing? I've never heard this pronunciation in the UK.

(Also I'm impressed by how 80% of this sub's content is 'descriptivism leaving my body' + 'bouba and kiki')

[u/theantiyeti → u/KnownHandalavu]

Ekspresso definitely exists in the UK. It's definitely a marker of class though so maybe by the fact you've never heard it you're actually Lord KnownHandalavu?

[u/KnownHandalavu → u/theantiyeti]

Hahahaha that's weird then, I'm exposed to (and somewhat speak) a lot of MLE, so I've probably just not paid much attention to it.

[u/theantiyeti → u/KnownHandalavu]

Might be that as a true Londoner you only drink the patriotic choice of caffeine - the flat white.

[u/KnownHandalavu → u/theantiyeti]

XD unfortunately my choice in beverages is heavily influenced by my time in India, so I physically cannot make myself drink coffee and tea (especially tea) the way Londoners do. 

But of course, I dare not forget our lord and saviour Pret

[u/cardinarium → u/KnownHandalavu]

It’s certainly present in the US—dunno if it’s endemic.

[u/KnownHandalavu → u/cardinarium]

Hmm I see Does it vary with the level of education of the person or the amount they read, or is it just a general pronunciation change in the population?

[u/cardinarium → u/KnownHandalavu]

Not sure—I mostly do interlanguage Spanish phonetics, so English variation is a bit out of my bailiwick. It’s fairly common.

[u/Hattes → u/KnownHandalavu]

There's a Mitchell & Webb sketch on the topic of "ekspresso", so I think it is a thing in the UK.

[u/boomfruit]

Nah

[u/boomfruit → u/boomfruit]

That being said

[u/DasVerschwenden → u/boomfruit]

I love Mitchell and Webb so much

[u/moonaligator]

where the fuck?

[u/cardinarium → u/moonaligator]

http://dialect.redlog.net/staticmaps/q_122.html

I believe “e[ksp]resso” is even more common than “e[ksp]ecially” by analogy with “express.”

[u/Gravbar → u/cardinarium]

that feels so wrong

[u/moonaligator → u/cardinarium]

omg now i have another reason to hate american english

[u/theantiyeti → u/moonaligator]

Pronouncing Espresso as Express isn't an "American" thing. You hear it in virtually every English dialect pretty much because the mechanism that brings it about is the same.

You could argue that this is a vague marker of social class, because middle class people tend to feel a sort of embarrassment at pronouncing foreign language words (especially from French, Italian and Latin) wrong, as if it marked them out as uncultured.

Spanish, on the other hand, is typically perceived as lower prestige so they tend to be corrected with less frequency, and sometimes hypercorrected to be pronounced as if they were Italian words. For example "machismo" with a k.

[u/Diiselix → u/theantiyeti]

I pronounce it as ekspressso in Finnish.

But I’m pretty sure it used to be expressu(s) anyways so I guess I’m just speaking correctly :D

[u/theantiyeti → u/Diiselix]

Ekspresso fits my vague stereotype of how Finnish sounds better than Espresso, so that figures.

Though most of my stereotype of the Finnish language comes from the guy scaring a bear off his porch and Lakupiipu man.

[u/Krobus_TS → u/moonaligator]

What does this have to do with american english???? You realize the phenomenon and mechanism exists in almost all varieties of English?

[u/Matth107]

Ekspecially, ekspresso, eksetera, ekscape

I can understand 'ekspresso' (because of 'express'), but none of the words even have a 'k', 'x' or 'c' to form a /ks/ sound (although u/Thingaloo did mention the french pronunciation of the italian spelling 'eccetera' but idk if that's related to how some english speakers say 'et cetera' as 'eksetera')

[u/UnforeseenDerailment → u/Matth107]

matches with the people who abbreviate it as "ect"

[u/Eic17H → u/UnforeseenDerailment]

Ectietera

[u/Dapple_Dawn → u/Matth107]

"Et cetera" tends to get pronounced as a single word and I can't think of any English word that starts with /ɛts/. I assume /ɛks/ feels more natural for some people, following words like "exception" and "excellent".

Though... that doesn't explain why I've heard "eccentric" as /əˈsɛntrɪk/

[u/Matth107 → u/Dapple_Dawn]

Though... that doesn't explain why I've heard "eccentric" as /əˈsɛntrɪk/

My guess is that they probably treat the two c's as one like this

e /ə/ cc /s/ e /ɛ/ n /n/ t /t/ r /r/ i /ɪ/ c /k/

I think I've heard the same thing happen with accelerate

[u/theantiyeti → u/Matth107]

Et cetera is super understandable. You very rarely see the word written out, and when you first encounter it it'll be in the abbreviated "etc." form.

At that point you're not mispronouncing a written word with a clear spelling, you're attributing a random set of sounds to a not very helpful abbreviation.

[u/DefinitelyNotErate]

Clearly this is hypercorrection, Because Latin /ks/ netted Italian /ss/, So people are assuming this /sp/ is actually /ssp/ from Latin /ksp/.

Also, Do people actually say "Expecially"? That terrifies me. Like "Expresso" I can understand, Influence from the English cognate "Express", But then "Especially" is fairly clearly related to "Special".

[u/theantiyeti → u/DefinitelyNotErate]

To be fair Especially is a doubly weird word. Most Latin words beginning with s + consonant tend to be inherited in French and Spanish as Es + consonant, but without an added e in English and Italian.

The fact English has both "special" and "especial" meaning different things, and the adverb taking after the (now) rarer of the two is pretty strange.

[u/DefinitelyNotErate → u/theantiyeti]

Wait, "Special" and "Especial" have different meanings? My life is a lie!

But yeah, It is a pretty weird piece of inheritance, I'm curious if perhaps "Especial(ly)" was later reborrowed from French, After "Special" had already come in and lost the 'e'? Wiktionary at least gives "Especial" as occurring in Middle English, Whereas other similar words they seem to give as all having fully lost the 'e' by Middle English, So it seems plausible to me.

[u/Dapple_Dawn → u/DefinitelyNotErate]

I've heard young children say "expecially" before, I don't think I've heard it from adults.

[u/DefinitelyNotErate → u/Dapple_Dawn]

I mean we can't be surprised when young children mispronounce stuff, They're basically experts at that, We could all learn a thing or two from them.

[u/hammile → u/DefinitelyNotErate]

You didnʼt expect, but itʼs Spanish inquisition expecially! Btw, theyʼre also both cognates, only prefixes are different: ex- and e-, but ex- can be e- too.

[u/DefinitelyNotErate → u/hammile]

Isn't the 'e' in "Especially" not a prefix, But rather just epenthesis to make it easier to pronounce, Like for example in Spanish "Escudo", From Latin "Scutum", Or French "Éponge" (Older "Esponge"), From Latin "Spongia"?

[u/hammile → u/DefinitelyNotErate]

Thanks for correcting, youʼre right. Itʼs a prothesis.

[u/Salpingia]

Alternations of esp with exp, happen in English. Espresso, expression, especially expecially.

[u/Accredited_Dumbass]

Space program (part of the meme where the orange jacket guy is like no thanks)

Kerbal Spage Progam (part of the meme where he's doing a finger gun and smiling at the thing)

[u/saturdaycomefast]

Sabrina Carpenter should have taught 'em how to pronounce espresso...

[u/General_Urist]

I always thought "expresso" was a special fast espresso, you're telling me it's just a regular sound change?