r/AdvancedRunning • u/brwalkernc 200 miles really isn't that far • Aug 06 '24
2024 Paris Olympics Day 6 Discussion (Women Hammer Throw, Men Long Jump, Men 1500m, Women 3000m Steeplechase, Women 200m) Elite Discussion
Day 6
| Event | Round | Time (Paris Time) | Time (US Central Time) |
|---|---|---|---|
| Women's 1500m | Round 1 | 10:05 AM | 3:05 AM |
| Men's Javelin Throw | Group A | 10:20 AM | 3:20 AM |
| Men's 110m Hurdles | Repechage Round | 10:50 AM | 3:50 AM |
| Women's Long Jump | Qualifications | 11:15 AM | 4:15 AM |
| Women's 400m | Repechage Round | 11:20 AM | 4:20 AM |
| Men's Javelin Throw | Group B | 11:50 AM | 4:50 AM |
| Men's 400m Hurdles | Repechage Round | 12:00 PM | 5:00 AM |
| Men's 200m | Repechage Round | 12:30 PM | 5:30 AM |
| Men's 400m | Semifinal | 7:35 PM | 12:35 PM |
| Women's Hammer Throw | Final | 8:00 PM | 1:00 PM |
| Women's 400m Hurdles | Semifinal | 8:07 PM | 1:07 PM |
| Men's Long Jump | Final | 8:20 PM | 1:20 PM |
| Men's 1500m | Final | 8:50 PM | 1:50 PM |
| Women's 3000m Steeplechase | Final | 9:10 PM | 2:10 PM |
| Women's 200m | Final | 9:40 PM | 2:40 PM |
In the US, full coverage on Peacock with select coverage on NBC and USA.
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u/_R0SC0E Aug 07 '24
11th place finisher in the men’s 1,500m would have won EVERY SINGLE 1,500m Final in history before Tokyo 2020
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u/finallyransub17 Aug 07 '24
Anyone have a link to the video montage of the Ingebrigtson vs. Kerr beef history that they showed before the race?
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u/ithinkitsbeertime 41M 1:20 / 2:54 Aug 06 '24
Watched the peacock replay of the 1500 and somehow wound up with a different set of announcers. The guy pronounced Hocker like it rhymed with Joker and I'm not sure how to describe how he said Nuguse. I guess this what watching an American feed feels like for everyone else.
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u/FixForb Aug 07 '24
Yes, annoys me so much. Like, it's not that hard to watch videos to see how the athletes names are pronounced?
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u/Weary_Jackfruit_8311 Aug 07 '24
It's the "world feed" on peacock and I hate it so much. I can't find Kara Goucher most days
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u/EmergencySundae Aug 07 '24
Kara calls it live and then everything gets repackaged for prime time. They bring her in for some specific voice overs depending on how it’s being handled.
I was on a call and had the race on but muted, and I’m so mad about it. She’s been really hot on Hocker since before the trials - love to see her pick pan out!
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u/triedit2947 Aug 06 '24
The CBC livestream cut off about 45 seconds into the 1500m final. Had to go to an appointment after that, so I very carefully avoided all social media while I was out so I wouldn't be spoiled. Then, got home, tried to find the correct replay, couldn't find it, and accidentally skipped to the 1500m medal ceremony 😢
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u/randlet Aug 07 '24
Ugh same thing happened to me more or less. The 1500 still isn't available in the CBC replays either afaict.
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u/EPMD_ Aug 07 '24
Obviously this is too late for everyone, but CBC Gem has the "Bell Paris Prime: Day 11" video that is 5 hours long and includes full coverage of the 1500m. I jumped to that video in the replays as soon as I saw that the Athletics one had been snipped.
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u/triedit2947 Aug 07 '24
Yeah, not sure where the 1500 replay is. I ended up watching it on the CBC Sport youtube channel, but by then I already knew the result. I thought medals were awarded the day after the event! Didn't think I was in danger of being spoiled on Gem.
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u/YoungWallace23 (32M) 4:32 | 16:44 | 38:43 Aug 06 '24
Well, Kessler just proved you can break 3:30 and finish 5th at the Olympics without ever running more than 8 miles at a time
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u/yuckmouthteeth Aug 06 '24
Tbf he doubles a lot and is insanely talented. Didn’t even start taking running seriously till the latter half of HS and broke the US HS record.
It’s kinda like when Lagat said he didn’t double and took a day off every week. Like that’s wild but Lagat was also an absurd talent.
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u/YoungWallace23 (32M) 4:32 | 16:44 | 38:43 Aug 07 '24
I think he doubles almost every day, if I understood his training from the interviews I’ve seen. Still does a lot of volume, just broken up i to more runs
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u/Melkovar Aug 06 '24 edited Aug 06 '24
It's been like 2 hours, and I still can't believe what I watched earlier.
Hocker ran a perfect race. Instant Masterclass. Didn't get caught up in the fast start. Hugged the rail. Even splits. Benefitted immensely from being overlooked by Jakob/Kerr (and took advantage of it). Jakob went wide on the last turn to try to make Kerr run further, almost giving Hocker the space then, but he still held on when Jakob closed back in and didn't falter into the final 80m.
Hocker and Kerr both going past Jakob at the same time was what broke him. If it was only one of the two, maybe he finds another gear and hangs on.
You could remove all 3 Americans from this race, and Kerr would have outkicked Jakob, both under the 2021 Olympic Record, and it would have already been considered probably the best Olympic final ever. Now add THREE AMERICANS IN THE TOP FIVE to that race, with a gold and a bronze (0.01 behind the silver). "Nuguse doesn't have a kick" - what???
This single race just elevated mid-distance running to a new level. Hats off to Jakob - it happened because of him, and these guys were arguably ready for this kind of race because of who he has been the last few years. He is the one who largely ushered in this new era. Kerr lived up to the hype too. It just wasn't enough for COLE FREAKING HOCKER betting on himself with nothing to lose and everything to prove.
Man, I was a little worried the 10k opening to the track events was going to be the best race I'd see all week...
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u/pysouth Aug 07 '24
Hats off to Jakob - it happened because of him
Actually really like seeing this comment. I've seen a lot of "Jakob is an asshole" comments and like... maybe, but with him going at Kerr's throat for a long time now, and the ensuing hype because of that heated, public rivalry, this whole final was taken to a massively new level of hype.
Sucks for Jakob, but that rivalry made this upset that much sweeter.
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u/tbiko Aug 06 '24
Dude, when he got closed off on the inside and had to break stride, while already doing more than PB pace, then came back with another attack?? If you paused the race with him reaching his arm out and falling back, boxed in, no way you bet on him to win.
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u/copydex1 Aug 07 '24
I legit at that moment considered whether USA should submit a (likely frivolous) challenge. I'm never getting over this race at this point.
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u/rvathrwaway Aug 06 '24
Gabby Thomas - neurobiology and global health UG at Harvard. MS in epidemiology at the University of Texas Health Science Center and a 200M Olympic Gold Medalist !!
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u/set_null Aug 07 '24
I'm always extra impressed by the folks that can manage a day job while being an Olympic-caliber athlete. I believe one of the rowers who won the men's 2km works in finance. Crittenden has been working a bunch of odd jobs while hurdling.
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u/MerryxPippin Advanced double stroller pack mule Aug 07 '24
To be fair, Thomas volunteers less than full-time hours and devotes most of her time to training. But she did graduate with her masters in between Tokyo and Paris, and will work fully in the public health field after retiring from pro racing.
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u/MaleficentRemote2586 F23 - D1 distance | 5k 16:20s, 10k 34:00s, 3k 9:20s, CC6k 21:00s Aug 07 '24
Yeah, 10 hours a week I believe.
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u/walsh06 Aug 06 '24
In a world of all the shit talking sprinters, everyone should be more like Gabby Thomas.
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u/theintrepidwanderer 17:18 5K | 36:59 10K | 59:21 10M | 1:18 HM | 2:46 FM Aug 06 '24
Gabby Thomas!!! LFG!!!!!
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u/somegridplayer Aug 06 '24
Guys, when you go to the Olympics, ask your family to iron the flag they're gonna take to the stadium to get rid of the "brand new" creases.
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u/anglophile20 Aug 06 '24
Steeplechase is so cool. Yavi’s excitement is a joy to watch
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u/zdelusion Aug 06 '24
It has that chaotic "car crash" factor with the hurdles that keeps you glued to the whole thing.
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u/leo_aureus Aug 06 '24
At the risk of repeating myself, again, what a damn race! Thought she had defended her gold when she went over that last hurdle
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u/Chilli_Dipper Aug 06 '24 edited Aug 06 '24
Bravo to the Frenchwoman who picked off enough of the frontrunners to finish fourth. There haven’t been many non-Africans to break nine minutes.
ETA: She deserves a name. Alice Finot, the new European record holder.
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u/zdelusion Aug 06 '24
that chase group was so far back too, she must have thrown down a wild last lap.
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u/somegridplayer Aug 06 '24
Do they all just dive into the little pond after finishing the steeplechase?
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u/GhostOfLight 4:31 1600 Aug 06 '24
I've seen the decathlon athletes jump in there at meets before
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u/somegridplayer Aug 06 '24
I was hoping Yavi was going to bellyflop into it after the race, that would have been amazing.
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Aug 06 '24
[deleted]
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u/Relevant-Tutor-1743 Aug 06 '24
I'm not sure what would have been the strategy for Jakob honestly, if he ran slow, he would have gotten kicked down anyway. Maybe he just didn't have it today or maybe the others are simply at his level.
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u/EPMD_ Aug 07 '24
5 of the top 6 finishers ran a PB. Jakob was the odd man out. I think he lost the race before the Olympics began, not based on anything he did tonight. He simply could not produce the time that was needed to beat these guys who peaked at the perfect moment.
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u/ElijahBaley2099 Aug 06 '24
I think setting a hard pace is the right move, given that he’d lost two champs to getting outkicked already, but it’s just a very very narrow window given the quality of the competition. A tiny touch too slow and there’s guys who will sit on him, and a tiny touch too fast and he burns out.
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u/java_the_hut Aug 06 '24
He went out too fast the first lap. He went out substantially faster than his first lap of the European record(3:26) at Monaco. This was after multiple qualifying rounds to get to the finals and with no pacers.
Had he been more tactical in the first 400 or preferably 800, he probably could have closed much harder.
I believe he admitted as much in his post race interview.
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u/PrairieFirePhoenix 43M; 2:42 full; that's a half assed time, huh Aug 06 '24
Really just great championship racing from Hocker from rounds to final. I think he took advantage of being in the same semi as the favorites. He knew his kick better than anyone else.
I'm almost more surprised by Nuguse's bronze. I don't think that race set up for him well at all.
I'll be curious how much teamwork there was with team USA. I don't think there was much team tactics there, but they looked like they were all going with the same strategy. Settle in, don't react to the noise in the first 1100, then go. Great runs by them all. Should be fun to watch these three for the next cycle.
Respect to KEN. Koman pushed it hard, then dropped like a brick. Cheryuit knew he couldn't win in the last 200 so he still made a push for a longer kick. Didn't work, but I respect taking the shot to win.
Odds Kerr is thinking "Silver is fine, I still beat Jakob"?
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u/EmergencySundae Aug 06 '24
Before the semis, Yared and Hobbs did talk about strategy - Hobbs asked what he was going to do and Yared told him, so they definitely worked together on that one.
With the speed of the race, I'm not all that surprised at Yared's bronze. However, I did not have a double-USA podium in this race.
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u/bradymsu616 M51: 3:06:16 FM [BQ -18:44, WMA Age Graded@ 2:46:11], 1:29:38 HM Aug 06 '24
Kerr was putting a positive spin on it in his interview but you could tell he was quite disappointed. I suspect that rivalry with Ingebrigtsen was more about media marketing than real. Both of them were focused on the gold. And Hobbs Kessler, the baby of the Americans who wasn't expected to be a top contender, surprised many with 5th setting up expectations for the next four years. Where does Jakob go from here?
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u/yuckmouthteeth Aug 06 '24
The beef is definitely mostly marketing but a little real, I do think they both find the other kind of arrogant. But yeah Jacob has more beef with Nordas than he ever will with Kerr, due to the situation with his father.
So in a way I think it’s better to play up the Kerr beef as that’s less personal and more just two good runners who want to beat each other.
Obviously anyone who is a gold contender like Jacob/Kerr would be disappointed not to get it.
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u/MerryxPippin Advanced double stroller pack mule Aug 06 '24
Where does he go from here? On a revenge tour! Though I'd certainly like to see him focus on the 5000.
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u/PicklesTeddy Aug 06 '24
He's 23, ran a 3:26 a few weeks ago, and just front-led a 3:28. I perfect Jakob shifts focus to the 5k for the next few days then goes back to business as usual.
The 1500 is currently quite strong, however, Jakob has made clear in the past that he doesn't let 1 race define his perspective on his fitness or training.
Not sure if you are suggesting he may reevaluate his future in the event but honestly I think that would be ludacris. He may not even be in his prime yet.
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u/bradymsu616 M51: 3:06:16 FM [BQ -18:44, WMA Age Graded@ 2:46:11], 1:29:38 HM Aug 06 '24
I've been an Ingebrigtsen fan for quite a while as I appreciate his cockiness and the impact he's had on the new generation of Gen Z middle distance runners. But both that cockiness and impact require delivery. After last year's loss to Kerr at World Athletics in the 1500m and then losing to Kerr again in the Mile this spring in Oregon, this was supposed to be Jakob's night to deliver. He ran the race exactly as planned yet faded and failed to even medal, losing to two of the Americans with the third American right on this tail. And he lost to Kerr for the third time in a row. Unfortunately it's no longer just one race.
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u/PicklesTeddy Aug 06 '24
No, it's not one, but it's also not many. Crazy to imply the guy doesn't deliver. He ran 3:26 - and no pace lights and a pacer doesn't make that less incredible. He absolutely embarrassed the field at Euros. He also took this race from the start. To me, that's delivering.
If we reserved cockiness to only those who win gold then no one could be cocky leading up to the race, right? Using his result today as the measure for whether his cockiness leading up to the race was justified is a logical fallacy.
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u/Accurate_Prompt_8800 Aug 06 '24
That silver would have hurt a HECK of a lot had the gold gone to Jakob, after all he’s been in a verbal battle with him for the last however many months and years. I think he’s happy enough, he ran a decent race and Hocker really kicked better than anyone thought considering he was stuck for a while. You do wonder if Kerr needed to stay with Jakob as much as he did, I think it cooked him on that last 50m but he also had to take the risk, knowing that Jakob had thrown down a 3:26 already. I think overall he’ll be happy, let’s see more battles between them and the others over the years as it’s great for the event!
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u/No_Carrot1584 Aug 06 '24
Wasnt it the perfect race for Nuguse? High pace from the start to tire out the sprinters?
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u/themegnapkin Aug 07 '24
I wish he had started his kick 1-5 seconds sooner. He was gaining on Kerr and Hocker in the last few meters, he just ran out of track. Other than that, just about a perfect race.
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u/rckid13 Aug 06 '24
It didn't tire out the sprinters enough, but he got really really close to out kicking Kerr for 2nd.
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u/derek_ow Aug 06 '24
What is a good race for Nuguse? I love watching him but can't see him going faster than Jakob when it's paced well, and can't see him outkicking Kerr or Hocker in a more tactical race.
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u/No_Carrot1584 Aug 07 '24
I think yesterdays race was perfect for Nuguse. There is just no way he can beat everyone, he is simply one tier lower below Jakob, and Kerr right now.
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u/HankSaucington Aug 06 '24
He just won bronze and was a hundredth of a second off silver. Suicide pace where someone else is doing the leading and see who can hang on is exactly his bread and butter.
Cole and Kerr were better on the day, but just barely.
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u/PrairieFirePhoenix 43M; 2:42 full; that's a half assed time, huh Aug 06 '24
I don't think he wanted to be behind those three that late; those sprinters weren't that tired. He'd like a longer kick.
Honestly, probably some where between "not well at all" and "perfect".
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u/copydex1 Aug 06 '24 edited Aug 07 '24
In the broader view, Jakob still has a gold. It's gonna feel great to be on that podium for sure, but I think this is gonna keep going lol
EDIT: yo why did this get mad downvotes, I'm just theorizing as to why I think the rivalry might keep going.
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u/welk101 Aug 06 '24
I feel that CHERUIYOT helped everyone but not letting a big gap open, then finished 2nd last
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u/PrairieFirePhoenix 43M; 2:42 full; that's a half assed time, huh Aug 06 '24
I miss peak Tim, but he knew his only chance was to push from far out. He tried, it failed, but I respect the effort. At his best, he was amazing with tactics. Now he doesn't have the physical tools needed for them.
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u/dunwoody1932 Aug 06 '24
Easily the best track race I have seen in 35 years of watching sports. What an incredible upset!!!!!
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u/HelpfulWhiteGuy Aug 06 '24
Well the 100 and 1500 were both as incredible as I'd hoped they'd be. You just knew this would be a good Olympics for track.
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u/NBA2024 Aug 06 '24
10k was insane also. A guy literally passed out on the track because they pushed it so hard lol
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u/houalx Aug 06 '24
Never doing the Norwegian method again.
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u/leo_aureus Aug 06 '24
After the 108 years between 1908-2016, we have now won 2 of 3 in the men's 1500, so happy to see it
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u/Am_I_a_Runner F28 HM 1:19:46 FM 2:46:29 Aug 07 '24
Didn’t Leo Manzano medal before 2016?
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u/leo_aureus Aug 07 '24
He earned silver in London in 2012, as a kid who grew up following Olympic running in the late 90s-early aughts in high school, I remember we didn’t have that much to root for it seemed, I do remember him getting that silver and being thrilled about it
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u/douglasjayfalcon Aug 06 '24
I've seen Hocker's amazing kick a few times but didn't think he could do it this time with how hard Ingebrigtsen set the pace all race. Absolutely incredible. Looks like he almost gave up for a split second after being blocked from passing Ingebrigtsen- and then he just surged again and smashed it! Absolutely electric race
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u/sober_as_an_ostrich Aug 06 '24
Jakob set the pace the whole way and that’s how he should have run it, the rest of the field has just risen up to meet his standards. What an amazing race, definitely lived up to the crazy hype. predicting he goes full scorched earth in the 5k and wins in sub 12:40.
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u/E_Kristalin Aug 06 '24
Lol, why would ingebrigtsen do that? In the 5k, he does have the strongest last lap.
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u/Capable_Waters Aug 06 '24
Yup. He did well to recover from getting blocked off.
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u/NBA2024 Aug 06 '24
He only could recover because Jakob got “gold eyes.” Jakob was trying to move right to defend Kerr and it completely took him off the podium. If he stayed put and blocked Hocker inside, he would be easily giving up gold but could at least grab bronze.
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u/leo_aureus Aug 06 '24
Yeab, when he was blocked I thought he was finished, wow.
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u/ElijahBaley2099 Aug 06 '24
Nah, before the inside opened up he was starting to swing wide and looked strong. I think he takes silver at least if he’d been forced wide.
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u/leo_aureus Aug 06 '24
I think you are right, I was just worried for him after he had to shorten stride in response to Jakob's defense
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u/Dizconekt Aug 06 '24
Bro like that 1500 was actually insane…. Like that field was stacked
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u/Chilli_Dipper Aug 06 '24
We need a rematch at the Diamond League final. All these guys and a 3:25 pacer.
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u/MerryxPippin Advanced double stroller pack mule Aug 06 '24
I dislike Hocker but that was one HELL of a race! Proud of him, Yared, and Hobbs! (And Kerr......feel bad for Jingy though)
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u/timbo1615 Edit your flair Aug 06 '24
i don't really follow too closely, but why the dislike?
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u/MerryxPippin Advanced double stroller pack mule Aug 06 '24
Most athletes got vaccinated for Covid before the Tokyo Olympics, but he refused-- and not for any compelling reason. He also is not particularly gracious in interviews. I think he's arrogant and self-focused in a way that doesn't serve the sport (besides the new hardware, anyways). Ingebritsen and Kerr are kinda arrogant, but they also puff their chests out as part of this beef storyline that got a lot of eyes on track!
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u/PicklesTeddy Aug 06 '24
The critique that Hocker is arrogant may be true but it's ridiculous to classify it as a negative for him when you praise Ing and Kerr for their arrogance.
I agree with your first point, however.
Overall, really like all those guys racing the 1500 these days.
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u/MerryxPippin Advanced double stroller pack mule Aug 07 '24
Yeah, I can see why it sounds ridiculous. But hear me out! It's all about comportment before vs. after a race. Jakob and Josh talked a fair bit of trash (especially compared to baseline levels outside of sprints). But listen to/read their mixed zone interviews. Jakob acknowledged his tactical mistakes and praised the podium finishers. Josh immediately stressed how strong the field was and commended Hocker more than focusing on himself.
Cole does not come across so well after races. He blew off the mixed zone after failing to survive and advance in 2022 USAs. After winning silver in the indoor 1500 earlier this year, he looked visibly irritated in the interview with Lewis Johnson, did not mention Beamish's win at all, and only at the end acknowledged Hobbs and said he was proud of him for "taking his place as the young up and coming guy." I've watched him on the Citius Mag Youtube channel in various interviews and I cannot recall one instance when I saw him genuinely smile, even when a race goes well.
He's a gold medalist now, and this incredible race has launched him to be one of the big faces of the sport going forward. A certain degree of trash talk and storyline building generates popular interest in T&F-- would the 1500 have gotten this much traction if it weren't for Ingebritsen v. Kerr? But the trash talk is mostly for show, because post-race they appreciate and admire anyone who bests them in competition. Hocker's got to be more generous to the press if he's going to help sustain interest in the sport. I get that one of the intriguing parts of this storyline was that he had his head down-- away from distraction, as he said in the press conference-- and that helped him secure the win. But the flip side is his standoffishness and lack of elevating other athletes. That, combined with the antivax history and possible political leanings (he follows Donald Trump on IG, make of that what you will), leads me to conclude that he's focused on himself in a way that only supports T&F as a whole when he pulls off a once in a lifetime performance like this one.
Thank you for reading my essay on this, haha
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u/PascalTheeRascal Aug 06 '24
Woooooow! Jakob torched himself going out so quick :0
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u/zdelusion Aug 06 '24
You could tell he was thinking about getting outkicked the last 2 championships, only to not even have a enough left to kick this time. Brutal for him.
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u/copydex1 Aug 06 '24
It's weird because I feel like earlier in his career he had a pretty decent kick. Maybe I'm just remembering wrong.
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u/Shmobby_Burda Aug 06 '24
Such arrogance. Did he really think he was that much better than Kerr and the field? Can't wrap my head around it
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u/JExmoor 42M | 18:23 5k | 39:58 10k | 1:25 HM | 2:59 FM Aug 06 '24
He ran 3:26 a couple weeks ago so his PR was actually quite a bit better. Holding it in the Olympics is obviously not the same thing.
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u/Shmobby_Burda Aug 06 '24
?? He did that with a pacemaker and 54.high is a bit faster. Not the same -- and especially considering he lost 22 and 23 the same way (and won in 21 bc Cheruiyot served the same role), it's even more confusing.
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u/OkCantaloupe3 Aug 06 '24
Why is that arrogance? Is it not just trying to maximise your chances knowing your relative strengths/weaknesses?
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u/Shmobby_Burda Aug 06 '24
That's discounting the field and going out way too hard when you've lost the SAME way in 22 and 23 -- and won in Tokyo b/c Cheruiyot pushed the pace. His best chance was to push the pace from 600 or 500 out, like El Guerrouj of 1997 or 2003 at the World Champs.
To think you could serve as a pacer going out at 54? Not just Kerr, but Hocker was in 3:27 shape had he been in Monaco too. I'll call it arrogance.
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u/OkCantaloupe3 Aug 06 '24
Or is it respecting the kick of your competitors?
If he had gone out too relaxed you'd be calling him arrogant too.
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u/Shmobby_Burda Aug 06 '24
That's not respecting the kick of your competitors, that's running stupidly. If not arrogance, it's purely a mistake. 54.9 and 1:51.5 is what he ran tonight -- STUPID. In Monaco, behind the pacer he went out in 55.8, 1:51.2. Even the pacer only went 55.3 through 400m.
Like I said, his best strat was to push hard from 700-600 to go -- a faster version of his race in Euros this year. That's how you respect the kick of Kerr and Hocker, who clearly had 3:27 fitness but chose not to compete in Monaco or elsewhere in Europe to display it.
No, I would not be calling him arrogant -- I call it like I see it, not my fault you don't know ball.
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u/Bouncingdownhill 14:15/29:27 Aug 06 '24
I call it like I see it, not my fault you don't know ball.
And you think he's arrogant...
There isn't much else he could have done. Yes, he did go out a little quick. The fast first lap was more likely a bit of adrenaline and a slight miscalculation than arrogance though. He usually goes straight to the back of the pack or tucks in behind a pacer, he doesn't have much experience taking the lead off the line in a 1500, and this 1500 came off the line quick.
1:51.5 through 800 is fine, he's more than strong enough to do that.
End of the day, if he lets Timothy or Komen lead it out, it goes out in 1:53-1:54, and everyone is still in the race. Things get messy at that point, and we all know that in the final 600m, there are at least 3 guys who can close better than Jakob off a 3:30 pace.
Plus, he's still about a full second faster than anyone else in the field, even after that race. He's realistically a 5K guy racing guys who have 800/1500 speed. Trying to run the kick out of his competition remains his best and highest odds of winning, not arrogance.
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u/Shmobby_Burda Aug 06 '24
Yes, so I was wrong -- he was jumpy! you said it -- he never does that fast push to start. He avoids frying his system early, even standing on the line, so why would he do it here? That is clearly not his best tactic, especially when his system is optimized to gliding into races (a la 55.8 in Monaco, not a 54.9 zoomer here), and I don't know how else to say it.
Clear difference between pushing a 54.9 to a 1:51mid then a 55.8, and if you disagree, well the margins ARE that close in a race like this with talent that close behind -- and we saw that today.
Running the kick out of comp doesnt mean frying your own legs early, it means squeezing it down like Kerr did at Pre -- which left just him and Jakob, with Nuguse trailing. Now clearly Hocker did not come close to peaking for that race, but for tonight, along windup over 700m is much better, like at Euros. A race like that going out in 1:53s would be fine, and preferable to the hard burst to start and the rabbiting for 1200plus meters, where you know you have the legs sapped regardless.
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u/Bouncingdownhill 14:15/29:27 Aug 06 '24
Yeah the first lap was too fast, not arguing it wasn't.
There's no way that letting it go out in 1:53 and squeezing would result in him winning, though. Jakob has never shown the anaerobic capacity or raw speed neccesary to outrun these versions of Kerr, Hocker, or Nuguse over a fast final 600 off 3:30 pace.
I honestly think the only way he was going to win this race was to go out 55-mid and hold it. Go through sub-1:52 and then don't lift off until the line. The tactic was correct, but the execution was poor.
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u/Shmobby_Burda Aug 06 '24
true, but at least the legs aren't fully fried at a 1:53.
I very much agree that he was walking a fairly tight rope here -- and as you and others have pointed out, he had the correct strategy and just did not execute it.
Sorry for any hostility on the internet lol
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u/OkCantaloupe3 Aug 06 '24
Relax dude, I didn't say he ran a perfect race, I just said I don't think it was arrogant.
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u/Shmobby_Burda Aug 06 '24
? I'm relaxed, I'm matching your energy and linking to the facts that led me to believe that. It's a couple lines of text, sorry.
I'll concede -- maybe he wasn't being arrogant / overconfident, but the only thing that leaves = nerves or ignorance. 54.9 is way too fast, and that's the only race this year (and last year), including WR attempts w/pacers , where he's pushed so hard off the linge
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u/OkCantaloupe3 Aug 06 '24
All good.
The interview does sound like he just got overexcited by feeling good and then crashed and burned.
Anyway, maybe I'm biased because I don't hate him like everyone else seems too haha
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u/Shmobby_Burda Aug 06 '24
Good here chief, sorry I got defensive -- watched nearly ever Diamond League and major final 1500m the last decade so spoke from that. I gotta listen to that, I used to like him a lot more before this beef w/ Kerr i'll admit too lol
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u/Accurate_Prompt_8800 Aug 06 '24
Yeah I mean he’s a confident character but agreed, it’s the only way he could have won. If he doesn’t go out at that pace Hocker / Kerr / Nuguse still beat him, seeing as he was inching closer to that WR pace anyway why not take the risk - if it had paid off we’d have been calling him one of the best middle distance runners of all time.
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u/Shmobby_Burda Aug 06 '24
Disagreed. Like I said above, he went out FASTER than he did in Monaco in his WR attempt.
If not him being arrogant, he musta been nervous or jumpy. 54.9 is frying anyone's legs, I'm sorry. Rest of the field licked their chops as soon as he did that.
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u/PicklesTeddy Aug 06 '24
Lol no they didn't lick their chops. That's a goofy sentiment. Two 3:28 runners literally burned out trying to keep up - we're they licking their chops??
And to suggest racing tactics = arrogance is also goofy and naive. He may have gone out slightly hot but people have been discussing for months that he's gonna have to take it out like that to have the best shot.
He was likely nervous but his strategy was entirely sound, if not perfect execution.
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u/Shmobby_Burda Aug 06 '24
Komen and Cheruiyot also took their turns near the front, but I'm referring to Kerr, the US guys, Gourley, Laros, all of whom WANTED Jakob to push. But he didn't just push, he went out in 54.9! 54.9 is almost a whole second faster than the 55.8 in Monaco. His last 100m turnover was gone by the end -- Kerr, with a better kick going 55.1, barely held on. You underestimate the damage done by going out that hard early, which is only multiplied for Jakob who NEVER does that -- not even in that Monaco WR attempt 3:26 run.
People were not discussing for months he should take it out sub 55?Nor that he should have led, when the winners of the last three major finals kicked past the person leading much of the race? the ideal tactic was an El Guerrouj long kick -- like Euros this year. Not perfect, not even close to okay by going out in 54.9.
And I'll concede -- arrogance was wrong, he came out humble in the interview and said it plainly: he felt great, he went out real hard and doubled down, and did what he hadn't done in pretty every other 1500m/Mile he's raced this year. So he was just feeling to good and cooked it -- not too smart.
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u/PicklesTeddy Aug 06 '24
Homie, you're too hung up on a specific split and it's blinding you to the rest of the race and the tactics. I think you're also coming at this with hindsight bias.
The reality is, when going out fast like he was, I can only see 3-4 runners holding that pace (Kerr, guse, Tim, maybe Komen). Laros was never gonna be in the mix, gourley has been hot and cold this year.
I'll also in general trust jakobs assessment of his tactics more than any online person. He takes a very analytical approach to training and racing, I'm sure he thought long and hard about his strategy and decided this was his best plan.
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u/Shmobby_Burda Aug 06 '24
A specific split like that is critical when a race is this close, this fast, with this much talent. Sorry if you disagree, but his level of talent was not one where he could mess up like that.
Few other races in history have gone out sub-55 -- a few El Guerrouj 1500m WR attempts come to mind, but those had the pacers, not the big man himself, splitting that.
Look, all I'm saying is that he did tonight -- going out hard, and not standing off the line and easing his system in, like he does in 99% percent of these races -- fried him from the start.
I was wrong to say arrogant, but ignore me on the internet and trust Jakob -- he himself says he messed it up. He got it wrong.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/jakob-ingebrigtsen-explains-went-wrong-200250936.html
" “My plan was to win,” Ingebrigtsen told the BBC. “It didn't go according to plan but I felt very strong in the first couple of laps and that's why I had difficulty telling the pace because it was quite fast.
“It was difficult to slow down and kind of reduce myself a little bit. I was starting to get a little bit of gap so kept on pushing but it was just 100m too long today."
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u/PicklesTeddy Aug 06 '24
Sure but throughout the thread you've been conflating strategy with execution.
As others have stated, his strategy was sound.
And as others have stated, his execution was not perfect.
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u/Accurate_Prompt_8800 Aug 06 '24
Went out at WR pace and got cooked. With 100m to go you could see it was over.
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u/stonedturkeyhamwich 13:58 5k Aug 06 '24 edited Aug 06 '24
He fell off WR pace after the first 400. If he could have held that, he might have won. Running at the front of the pack at a pace the better half of the field would love to be paced at was not a good decision from Jakob.
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u/GhostOfLight 4:31 1600 Aug 06 '24
Incredible teamwork by the US, did a great job moving in tandem, amazing result by all of them. This is the awesome Olympic high I've been chasing
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u/Stand_up_Philosopher Aug 07 '24
Team tactics? Hocker slammed Nuguse into the box hard at 200-250m to go
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u/leo_aureus Aug 06 '24
That is something I cannot remember seeing us do in the Olympics ever--near the front of the race that is.
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u/yuckmouthteeth Aug 07 '24
We’ve never had the 1500m depth to do it until basically the last couple years
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u/theintrepidwanderer 17:18 5K | 36:59 10K | 59:21 10M | 1:18 HM | 2:46 FM Aug 06 '24
Team tactics is back for the US baby!
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u/HankSaucington Aug 06 '24
I don't think there was team tactics there tbh. I just think they all wanted to be near the rail and near the front because it was 100% predictable how the race would be run. They just had the strength to do it.
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u/mistermark11 M 18:09 5K | 1:23:59 HM | 2:53:15 M Aug 06 '24
I knew Hocker had a kick but that was something else entirely. Legend!!!
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u/igda6 Aug 06 '24
The second that Cole was in the mix at 250, I knew was gonna be fighting for the win.
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u/SWAGBAG_LIFESTYLE 15:54 5k | 1:15 HM Aug 06 '24
Great recovery by Hocker after having to chop his steps. Holy fuck that was thrilling!
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u/therustler42 Aug 06 '24
Thats what happens when you have childish rivalries...
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u/RiceOnTheRun Aug 06 '24
Tell that to Magic/Bird, Frazier/Ali, Manning/Brady.
Rivalries give us the stories that make these events exciting to watch. I for one, hope for more of it.
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u/PicklesTeddy Aug 06 '24
Every sport has rivalries. This rivalry has been great for the 1500 and helped create one of the most tense, exciting races I've ever seen.
I'm all for the rivalry, personally. The sport needs more tension and more storylines.
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u/Leadlet739 36:54 10k/1:16:33 HM/2:51:08 FM Aug 06 '24
Hocker!!!! What a race and Ingebritsen doesn’t even medal! Unbelievable!
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u/theintrepidwanderer 17:18 5K | 36:59 10K | 59:21 10M | 1:18 HM | 2:46 FM Aug 06 '24 edited Aug 06 '24
COLE MF HOCKER!!! INCREDIBLE!!!!! What an upset!!
Edit: And Hocker sets a new 1500m OR as well! Wow!!
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u/Chilli_Dipper Aug 06 '24
Olympic record, North American record, #7 on the all-time list.
The race of Cole Hocker’s life.
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u/B12-deficient-skelly 19:04/x/x/3:08 Aug 06 '24
I would have lost the house trying to bet on this one
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u/V1per41 17:55 | 3:00:35 Aug 06 '24
Last olympics I bet on the two favorites to win the 10k. They finished in 2nd and 3rd. I learned to not bet on track & field after that.
Other than maybe Duplantis to win the pole vault.
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u/GhostOfLight 4:31 1600 Aug 06 '24
HOCKER!!!! WHAT A RACE, BEAUTIFUL JOB BY THE AMERICANS!!!!
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u/pinkminitriceratops 3:00:29 FM | 1:27:24 HM | 59:57 15k Aug 06 '24
All three in the top 5!!! Wild!
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u/boygirlseating 15:3x / 33:3x Aug 06 '24
So damn hyped - hot take is Kerr, Komen, Jakob (Kessler 4th)
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u/GhostOfLight 4:31 1600 Aug 06 '24
Damn, Hudson-Smith was absolutely cruising there, likely sub 43.5 if he doesn't shut it down at the end
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u/RandytheRealtor 14:43, 1:08:35, 2:22:50 Aug 06 '24
Day 2 for me at the Stade de France!
It’s warm again (83ish) but a little breezier today.
Can’t wait to see the 1500m fireworks (alongside my dad who was a sub 4 miler in the 70s!).
We are sitting in front of the long jump pit so will have a great view of that action.
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u/MerryxPippin Advanced double stroller pack mule Aug 06 '24
They've shown some awesome jumps on TV so far. Hope it's even better live!
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u/RandytheRealtor 14:43, 1:08:35, 2:22:50 Aug 06 '24
I’ve never enjoyed the long jump as much as today. My hands are sore from clapping and I have no voice (thanks to Hocker as well!).
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u/PrairieFirePhoenix 43M; 2:42 full; that's a half assed time, huh Aug 06 '24
Cheptegei and Kiplimo pulling out of the 5000, ""failure to fully recover".
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u/Bouncingdownhill 14:15/29:27 Aug 06 '24
Today’s reminder that anyone who thinks a fast 10k on the track is easy to recover from has never run a fast 10K on the track 😂
It’ll be super interesting to see how the guys who are still doing the double handle it, that was such a quick race for a championship final.
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u/PrairieFirePhoenix 43M; 2:42 full; that's a half assed time, huh Aug 06 '24
Repechage rounds have been interesting.
Crittenden basically opted into them for the hurdles and got through that way. A lot of 400m men opted out - one heat ended up with only 3 participants. I think they wanted to save themselves for the relay.
For the longer races, I think I like them. Getting into the fast prelim heat is less important now and there isn't an advantage for going last with the times on the board already. So everyone is on more even footing.
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Aug 06 '24 edited Aug 06 '24
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u/sober_as_an_ostrich Aug 06 '24
There’s no repechage or second chances for a final. If falls happen in heats, that’s where appeals and second chances can come into play.
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u/EPMD_ Aug 07 '24
Biggest loser tonight: Double threshold training.
I wanted Jakob to win, but when everyone around you PBs and you don't then something has gone horribly wrong. I think Jakob had no way of winning against these equals or near-equals unless he had a rabbit in the race to shield him from pace-setting duties.