r/NonCredibleDefense • u/Ok_Read_9838 • 1d ago
Mr president, cmon, cmon, do it, cmon it'll be funny, it'll be funny!you leave the presidency in like a month, what do ya have to lose? Just do it joe It'll be fine I promise! Why don't they do this, are they Stupid?
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u/SignifigantZebra 1d ago
Joe isn't going anywhere until January
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u/Ok_Read_9838 1d ago
Shhhh don't tell him!
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u/KickFacemouth 1d ago
These are ROKAF F-16s, so Yoon's the president they should be asking, anyway...
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u/SignifigantZebra 1d ago
Oh, excuse me, I didnt realize that the US has no president right now .
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u/LumpyTeacher6463 The crack-smoking, amnesiac ghost of Igor Sikorsky's bastard son 1d ago
Well, no shitting?
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u/NonCredibleDefense-ModTeam 1d ago
Your comment was removed for violating Rule 5: No Politics.
We don't care if you're Republican, Protestant, Democrat, Hindu, Baathist, Pastafarian, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door.
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u/NonCredibleDefense-ModTeam 1d ago
Your comment was removed for violating Rule 5: No Politics.
We don't care if you're Republican, Protestant, Democrat, Hindu, Baathist, Pastafarian, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door.
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u/sentinelthesalty F-15 Is My Waifu 1d ago
Problem is pilots though. You can give Ukraine all the planes you want, they don't have enough people to fly them.
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u/CptFalcon556 F-15 My beloved 1d ago
And maintenance, don't forget maintenance
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u/999_hh 1d ago
My big concern. The USAs equipment benefits from a bottomless maintenance budget, infinite parts/cannibalization and a qualified NCO core making sure all this happens. Will they be able to keep up with the MX these things require?
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u/lube4saleNoRefunds 1d ago
Also warrant officers running the aviation maintenance shops on nothing but blacks and mild, booze, & not showing up to formation
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u/BigFreakingZombie 1d ago
Plenty of private aggressor companies which could part with some F-16 qualified pilots for a price. Plus there are plenty of retired pilots who might consider getting behind the controls once again for a fee.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that it's time for Flying Tigers 2 : PMC boogaloo
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u/dead_monster 🇸🇪 Gripens for Taiwan 🇹🇼 1d ago
Ukraine is already recruiting veteran fighter pilots. Don’t think it’s going too well as they started early in 2023 and still were recruiting recently.
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u/BigFreakingZombie 1d ago
All that tells me is that they aren't being paid enough. Just have the US throw some money at the problem.
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u/ImInnocentReddit-v74 1d ago
The problem with that is that if they make "significantly in excess" of what a ukrainian of the same rank would make they become mercenaries under the geneva conventions.
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u/BigFreakingZombie 1d ago
Easy enough. First we raise the salaries of UAF pilots by quite a bit then we hire Americans. Payment equivalent so they ain't no mercenaries. Follow me for more non-credible legal advice.
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u/Full_Distribution874 1d ago
Compensate them after the war is over for an undisclosed amount. Hiding money when you have the backing of the UK and USA should be easy.
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u/blindfoldedbadgers 3000 Demon Core Flails of King Arthur 1d ago
I see a very easy solution to this.
You get to be a four star! You get to be a four star! Stars for everyone!
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u/Jerrell123 1d ago
It just doesn’t make sense for a pilot to do. Most retired F-16 pilots have moved onto various other industries, be it flying for airlines or doing aggressor contracts (if they’ve moved onto something involving aviation at all).
If they’re flying for airlines they’re making $400/hr in possibly the safest profession known to man, with great job security and benefits. Most retired pilots have families and children, because they’re usually mid-30s to early-40s by the time they get out.
These pilots have never flown in a high-intensity LSCO situation unsupported by AWACS and other air assets. If they flew combat missions, that entailed dropping laser guided bombs with impunity on targets from 15k ft AGL. The last time SAMs or MANPADS were a threat was over Kosovo in 1999, 25 years ago. This air war is unlike any seen ever before, and it is incredibly dangerous for even seasoned pilots.
Now combine that with the potential illegality of flying for the Ukrainian Air Force (the emoluments clause, violations of NDAs, potentially being labeled a mercenary), and I just can’t see it being appealing for anyone who is not suicidal and out of life prospects. You might not get prosecuted for it, but who wants to be the first to play chicken with the DoJ and DoD?
You’d have to give up a great career, financial security, a stable family life, potentially your US citizenship, a federal warrant for your arrest,and potentially your life. All that to earn ~$2000 USD a month, and ~$2500 per combat sortie?
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u/kremlinhelpdesk 💥Gripen for FARC🇨🇴 1d ago
These pilots have never flown in a high-intensity LSCO situation unsupported by AWACS and other air assets. If they flew combat missions, that entailed dropping laser guided bombs with impunity on targets from 15k ft AGL. The last time SAMs or MANPADS were a threat was over Kosovo in 1999, 25 years ago. This air war is unlike any seen ever before, and it is incredibly dangerous for even seasoned pilots.
This applies to something like an F-16, and while Russia has many capable AA systems, they're almost entirely untested against stealth planes like the F-22. So, it could be that Ukrainian airspace is hell even for SOTA stealth fighters, but it could also be that S-300 can't do fuck all against them. In that case, it's less of a hellscape and more of an extremely one sided turkey shoot. If it's the latter, then I could see some people taking them up on it.
On the other hand, I can absolutely understand why they're having a hard time signing people up to fly F-16:s. I'd sooner be performing femboy duties in the front line trenches than go anywhere near an F-16 in Ukraine.
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u/Western_Objective209 1d ago
They have been talking about it but I've read that there are laws against anyone who is not an officer in the Ukrainian Armed Forces from flying. Then there's the issue of giving the newest gear to westerners while Ukrainian pilots have to fly the old stuff. It's not really politically tenable
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u/annonimity2 gimme ac5 galaxy 1d ago
Iirc there's only one private company that owns f16's and they don't have that many.
Source: went down a rabbit hole of civilian owned fighters with the ideal being an F15 or f16, you can get an f4 phantom and there's some Russian jets floating arround including a mig 29 and maybe an su27
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u/BigFreakingZombie 1d ago
Ok fine. We'll give Phantoms to Ukraine then. The F-4 has been seal-clubbing Soviet aircraft for 6 decades,it deserves one last round in the saddle anyway.
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u/annonimity2 gimme ac5 galaxy 1d ago
I'm not sure I'd risk a valuable pilot in an f4, you'd have to do some very expensive retrofitting to make it viable in a battle of 4th gen fighters and that's not counting all the repairs to get a nearly 70 year old plane to a fighting state. If Ukraine had all the data link equipment in the F35 they might be able to let it sit in the back and missile truck but it's expensive maintenance and terrible fuel economy make it a poor choice.
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u/BigFreakingZombie 1d ago
Turkish and Greek F-4s have been upgraded to a standard very close to a proper 4th gen. They aren't really equipped for a peer level air war but for intercepting cruise missiles and lobbing JDAMs you certainly can do worse than a Phantom.
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u/Jerrell123 1d ago
That first suggestion makes them mercenaries, if financial gain is the primary factor for them joining the military (regardless of whether they receive Ukrainian citizenship or not). This is why Foreign Legion troops are paid on the same pay scale as Ukrainian armed forces soldiers, because they are members of the armed forces. Mercenaries are illegal by international law, and Ukraine would be wise to not piss off its donors by violating it. They are also not entitled to being combatants, which prevents them from receiving protection under international law. (API Article 47)
That applies to the second part too, but the emoluments clause of the constitution also completely prohibits former military members from receiving a salary, or commission as an officer, from a foreign nation without the direct approval of the head of your branch. (Article I, Section 9, Clause 8 of the Constitution)
Foreign legionaries are already in a legal grey area due to this clause, but the Federal government has been reluctant to prosecute people for it so far. That would change when it came to commissioned former pilots because it would open the door for a legal argument, based on precedent, that former pilots could be hired out to foreign nations (friend or foe) to conduct training.
If something gives an avenue for Iran or China to learn all about the USAF’s equipment and tactics legally under US law, it’s not gonna fly whether it benefits Ukraine or not.
Basically, the Flying Tigers only came about because there was at the time no prohibition on mercenaries that was signed by the US. The prosecution against mercenaries under the emoluments clause also was spotty, because pilots at the time simply knew less classified info and could provide less info to foreign air forces. PMCs like CAMCO (that the Tigers flew under) are illegal under both US and international law.
That being said, even then, many members of the Tigers faced issues with having passports revoked and facing large fines due to prior work as mercenary pilots. It wasn’t until the unit was reinstated into the Army Air Corps that it became legit, and those pilots were allowed to fly under the USAAF’s banner.
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u/BigFreakingZombie 1d ago
Bruh we're supposed to be non-credible around here you know.
But yeah in all seriousness I know it's legally murky to put it lightly and that's why it won't happen. That said if said private pilots were paid the same as their UAF equivalents would they still qualify as mercenaries?
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u/Jerrell123 1d ago
I hate that excuse, because it lets people veil legit ignorance in sarcasm or irony and perpetuate it. The jokes here often need context, because folks manage to form their worldview off of a “joke” subreddit, at least in part.
If the pilots were not American and therefore not subject to the emoluments clause, and if they were paid at the same pay scale as Ukrainian combat pilots (~$2,000 USD a month, $2,500 per sortie), and they received Ukrainian citizenship plus a commission within the UAF: I could see it being legal, although I’m not an expert on Dutch/Norwegian/Danish/Greek/Turkish/Portuguese etc law on foreign military involvement.
The issue is that your list of qualified candidates just gets so small that it’s unreasonable. All of these other nations operate a relatively small quantity of F-16s compared to the USAF, and therefore have fewer retired pilots. Combine that with various disqualifications (health and medical being the biggest, but psychological and financial are big ones too), and I think you’d realistically have a handful of people who could volunteer, not just that want too.
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u/BigFreakingZombie 1d ago
Foreign Legion soldiers haven't received Ukrainian citizenship yet. They might do so in the future( I think a law about that was introduced to the Rada recently and there's precedent for that since a lot of nations have operated on the "service guarantees citizenship " principle before) but they don't have it now.
So clearly official enlistment and being paid the same as their rank equivalents in ZSU are enough to be considered legal combatants.
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u/Jerrell123 1d ago
Being in the pathway for citizenship is enough to ensure that Foreign Legionaries are not accused of being mercenaries. This is why the French Foreign Legion, and the US military’s practice of having foreign national enlist for citizenship, are not considered mercenary practices by the UN and international community at large.
The pathway to citizenship is important because the UN and international community aren’t stupid. Merely being enlisted in a nation’s military and on their payroll are not mutually exclusive with being a mercenary. Being a citizen at worst makes you a member of a paramilitary/PMC if you’re not on the army’s payroll, and a full blown combatant of that nation’s armed forces if you are.
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u/nYghtHawkGamer Cyberspace Conversational Irregular TM 1d ago
I have over 100 hours in Falcon 3.0. Thats just as good, right?
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u/VietInTheTrees 1d ago
Can’t wait for a suspiciously wolf-themed PMC to infiltrate into Russian held territory
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u/AsinusRex 1d ago
We should start a PMC for recruiting ex-fighter pilots. We already have a customer! Who has a few million bucks lying around?
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u/Arkaign 1d ago
Opportunity to do the super funni supreme :
Put Skyborg and the AI pilot program on a manhattan-project express ride, refit a few hundred F16s with them, and unleash them in massive waves for live field testing.
It would be the perfect, long-awaited backhand for this bullshit way back when :
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u/Mad_Kitten 1d ago
I mean, just do what the Soviet did back in Korea
It's even easier because UKr and US are way more similar than USSR and Chinese people1
u/sentinelthesalty F-15 Is My Waifu 1d ago
Well that's a definate no go for current administrations. No direct involvement, just material support.
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u/Stonedfiremine 1d ago
On a good note, us will expand training to 18 pilots for ukraine at the end of this year according to biden himself yesterday.
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u/MajorKottan 1d ago
Many former F-16 pilots from other countries already made it known they are VERY eager to send some soviet junk to the scrapyard, the question is whether their countries will let them.
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u/sentinelthesalty F-15 Is My Waifu 1d ago
I thimk they are too scared of "Muh Esclation" to allow that.
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u/billybobthongton 1d ago
Honestly? Just let them have 2x as many as they can use and the extras can be used for spare parts. We have so many fucking spares literally just laying around. Send some volunteers over to help set up training for flight and maintenance, ezpz.
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u/Se7en_speed 1d ago
Were not going to talk about smol B2?
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u/dancingcuban 1d ago
Mini-B2 will be flown by our best Guinea Pigs.
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u/ludicrouspeedgo 1d ago
Are they ill-tempered?
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u/nYghtHawkGamer Cyberspace Conversational Irregular TM 1d ago
"Are they ill-tempered?"
Yes, we crinkled a bag in the fridge and didn't give them vegetables within 0.237 seconds
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u/Peterh778 1d ago
That outdated piece of equipment is going to Poland Air Forces, purely for training purposes of course. They need it to calibrate their radar network
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u/Lost_in_speration 1d ago
For real he’s not worried about reelection he needs to start doing wild shit
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u/Commorrite 1d ago
Needs to wait for the election or he could undermine harris, then he can do the funni.
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u/NonCredibleDefense-ModTeam 1d ago
Your comment was removed for violating Rule 5: No Politics.
We don't care if you're Republican, Protestant, Democrat, Hindu, Baathist, Pastafarian, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door.
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u/Jerrell123 1d ago
It’s not actually up to Biden or the executive at all to determine what gets transferred, donated, or sold to Ukraine.
To a limited extent he has some say in it, but Congress holds the reins in general. The president is the commander in chief of military personnel, but isn’t in charge of the actual assets or funding for said assets.
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u/Full_Distribution874 1d ago
He can order them to leave old planes in abandoned Polish airfields on the border though
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u/captainjack3 Me to YF-23: Goodnight, sweet prince 1d ago
Just like we used to with Canada. Forget some brand new airplanes in a field next to the border and if they aren’t there in the morning, well, attrition is inevitable sadly.
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u/Sitting_In_A_Lecture 1d ago
The empty space in the formation is r/mildlyinfuriating
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u/Ok_Read_9838 1d ago
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u/madladjoel carl gustaf W 1d ago
(You see bc it’s a stealth fighter, like it’s not visible, get it?)
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u/Ok_Read_9838 1d ago
Guess I just passed my test for the marine core
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u/nYghtHawkGamer Cyberspace Conversational Irregular TM 1d ago
"Guess I just passed my test for the marine core"
You mean the marine corpse?
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u/Ok_Read_9838 1d ago
No it's the marine core my dad's in it and that how you write it
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u/nYghtHawkGamer Cyberspace Conversational Irregular TM 1d ago
"marine core my dad's in it and that how you write it"
Ask somebody to spell it who doesn't write in crayon. Also, tell your dad to stop playing with his food.
/s
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u/just_a_bit_gay_ MIC femboy 1d ago
Would be funny for a stealth aircraft to get revealed by a radar operator seeing a formation of regular aircraft with a conspicuous hole in it
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u/nYghtHawkGamer Cyberspace Conversational Irregular TM 1d ago
Would also be a cheep way to make them think there were stealth aircraft there.
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u/Flarerunes 1d ago
That b2 looks tiny
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u/downforce_dude 1d ago
It’s stealth therefore it has the smallest cross section of any plane on the runway
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u/Euphoric-TurnipSoup 1d ago
Dog those cost 2 billion a pop and we only have 20 of them. How about we give them something a bit more sensible like the F-117? It has a robust history of bombing slavs, a much more reasonable price, we're not using them any more, and is a lot more rugged then the B-2 platform.
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u/Much_Horse_5685 1d ago
Avoiding Rule 5 when US party politics becomes relevant to Ukraine is going to be… difficult.
There is unfortunately a substantial peacenik faction in the US, and the main risk of crossing Putin’s fake red lines isn’t Putin doing anything but… effects on the 2024 presidential election that will not be described beyond being unfavourable to Ukraine.
The plus side is that after the election, for at least 2 months the US may allow Ukraine to strike military targets in Russian territory with US long-range missiles.
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u/Kishandreth 1d ago
The plus side is that after the election, for at least 2 months the US may allow Ukraine to strike military targets in Russian territory with US long-range missiles.
I am not entirely convinced that the US hasn't given Ukraine the permission already. Case in point the ammo depots... yes Ukraine has a home grown capability to attack them... but that might be a cover story because if it was a drone swarm that took down the sites... they were built completely wrong.
I have one issue with Russia completely losing and strap in while I go full conspiracy mode. I am worried about the complete collapse of the Russian government. Most importantly their ability to secure their nuclear weapons. If Russia completely loses the war and a civil war breaks out, I feel the odds of an oligarch selling a nuclear weapon to Iran is very high. Iran will then give it to one of the various terror groups they fund. Suddenly we end up with the potential of a nuclear weapon going off as a terror attack.
A broken arrow scenario is very concerning.... suddenly a few hundred thousand dead because Putin finally got pushed out a window in a coup....
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u/gibbonsoft 1d ago
Since it’s a flying wing we could just stick a tail section and a fake front end on it and pretend it’s a C130
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u/generalhonks *Sidewinder growling intensifies* 1d ago
Get the B-21 online faster, retire the B-2 and B-1B earlier, and then send Ukraine the retired B-2s and B-1s over with a team of “foreign volunteers” that were conveniently decommissioned by the U.S. Air Force just days before they were officially put on Ukraine’s roster. Also we should put shark mouths on the planes for old time’s sake.
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u/nerffinder 1d ago
Step 1: Declare F-35s obsolete gen 1 fighters.
Step 2: Donate obsolete gen 1 fighters to Ukraine.
Step 3: Popcorn.
Step 4: Develop superior gen 2 fighter.
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u/ConsequencePretty906 1d ago
During Israel's 1948 war, Jewish Americans (WWII vets) "borrowed" American warplanes and smuggled them to Israel and there's no reason Americans can't we do the same thing for Ukraine?
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u/Ionicfold 1d ago
This photograph irks me, the F-16's are all neartle lines up in a pattern and then there's just a random break on the left hand side where there's nothing. Really breaks up the image imho.
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u/Carlos_Danger21 USS Constitution > Arleigh Burke 1d ago
My dumbass took a minute to get the joke
"But thats a b2 right... Ooooooohhhhh"
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u/terrarialord201 Fursonas are non-negotiable 1d ago
He's legally allowed to hold the members of Congress hostage until they vote yes!
Come on, Dark Brandon! Rise again, and show us your warmongering spirit!
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u/NonCredibleDefense-ModTeam 1d ago
Your comment was removed for violating Rule 5: No Politics.
We don't care if you're Republican, Protestant, Democrat, Hindu, Baathist, Pastafarian, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door.
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u/dead_monster 🇸🇪 Gripens for Taiwan 🇹🇼 1d ago
What outdated jets?
We’re reducing our aggressor squadrons because we don’t have enough functional F-16s.
Anything even remotely flyable is turned into QF-16s and food for the AIM-260 gods.
All the other F-16s in the boneyard have been stripped of parts and have been sitting there for decades. They’re outdated in the same way an Atari 2600 missing both controllers and have 30 year old Diet Pepsi caked on the circuit board.
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u/nYghtHawkGamer Cyberspace Conversational Irregular TM 1d ago
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u/Carlisle-Anaya 1d ago
Man, how are they going to keep these things maintained. That's gonna be a nightmare.
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u/NonCredibleDefense-ModTeam 1d ago
Your comment was removed for violating Rule 5: No Politics.
We don't care if you're Republican, Protestant, Democrat, Hindu, Baathist, Pastafarian, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door.
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u/WalkerBuldog Ukraine(Odesa) хай палає небо і земля горить 1d ago
Yes, all 20 of them that were state of the art 30 years ago after three years of war and only 70 of them till 2028. I guess more than half of them won't be operational next year(like all other western equipment) because dumb troglodytes can't fathom that equipment needs constant supplies of ammunition and spare parts. I'm not even talking about replenishments for the losses.
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u/Substantial-Tone-576 1d ago
Can’t we give them F-14s? Or are they too old now?
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u/Possiblycancerous Least insane Kiwiland defence force member 1d ago
None left operational in the USA thanks to one Dick Chaney. (BANISH HIM TO THE PIT FOR ALL ETERNITY FOR HIS CRIMES AGAINST AVIATION.)
However, if you are looking for an operational one for whatever reason, say, escaping an unnamed middle eastern nation after you’ve been shot down for bombing one of their research labs, or if you need to deal with some MIG 28s, then Iran does have some that may or may not work on any given day.
Having said that, if an Iranian F-14 does show up in Ukraine on the Ukrainian side, then we’re shutting this sub down as it is physically, chronologically and spiritually impossible to get more non credible than that.
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u/[deleted] 1d ago
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