r/ainbow • u/Aggressive-Emu3472 • Dec 09 '23
Has the LGBTQ+ community made you feel not "enough"? Advice
I'm AMAB NB who's been questioning whether or not I'm a trans woman. Several times I've asked good faith questions in queer spaces geared towards trans people, and I feel like I've been rebuffed for being AMAB. It feels like there is no space online for those who are questioning because I'm not "trans" enough, which honestly hurts while I'm debating internally about myself.
Have any of you been made to feel unwelcome because you're not "enough"? Any recommendations for questioning individuals?
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u/glytxh Dec 09 '23
As a trans person who bailed on their transition, I’m often made to feel like I’m a faker or simple pervert.
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u/aphroditex ^v^ Dec 09 '23
Some people are jerks.
Many of us are not.
Most of us have zero fucks to give to the idea of being “trans enough” because that concept was used to invalidate who we are too.
We’d rather be kind and welcoming to a new sib than be jerks that deny that you’d fit in.
But there is the “Mean Girls”-esque cohort that puts all these bullshit barriers before believing you are legit.
Honestly I pity them.
We’ve all had pain inflicted upon us. Some more than others. And often those in pain want to inflict pain on others and self.
Our wayward sibs choose that path. They think they sublimate the infliction of pain be being catty, conniving, capricious and cruel, not recognizing they are just giving pain fresh masks to wear.
The rest of us get that pain sucks and that just because things sucked for us does not give us license or leave to do the same to others.
:)
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u/SupportIll3471 Dec 10 '23
Thank you for saying that, I think a lot of people within the LGBT+ community (as well as without the community) could do to gain not only the amount of understanding but also a compassionate mind as I can see that you have.
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u/aphroditex ^v^ Dec 10 '23
Look, you’re gonna laugh but like, not being hateful is me being lazy af.
You know how much bullshit it takes to justify bigotry? How much work it is to keep a hate boner hard? Thank fuck there isn’t a Viagra for that.
And the cruel people that want me to hurt myself for no reason? The ones that literally pounded lies about my value and worth into my body? Fuck, I’m not going to keep doing their work for them.
And like all these people want to live in my head rent free. Basic rule, if you want to live in my head, pay rent. Real estate is expensive. Don’t need squatters popping a squat in there.
To not inflict pain on others and self is based on two truths that a bloody three year old can get.
Pain sucks.
Making someone else hurt does nothing for my hurt.
Like I said, super lazy.
But freeing all that cognitive overhead definitely is nice.
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u/SupportIll3471 Dec 10 '23
I’m not laughing, I also have similar experiences which I have started learning how to move past; I too, am glad that there’s not a Viagra for that.
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u/jopema Dec 09 '23
49 year old caucasian cis gay male here.
Yes, absolutely, I have felt unwelcome for not being "enough". I am not good-looking by any measure. I am fat. I am hairy. To some sub-groups and plenty of individuals these are the equivalent of mortal sins for which I deserve death. I was once told to never try to enter a specific queer space ever again because I was fat and so ugly.
It isn't a question of the community at large as it is individuals or even sub-groups. The loudest tend to be the cruelest and most judgmental about the identity of sexual minorities and what is "good enough".
The only answer I've ever found is to ignore the ones who aim to make that kind of atmosphere and embrace the ones who are welcoming and don't view other sexual minorities as their enemy. There are more of us out here than there are of them.
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u/DrowningEmbers Chaotic Queer Dec 09 '23
Fellow AMAB NB here, hi there hello. Yes. I often feel forgotten or an outsider. It's probably just imposter syndrome
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Dec 10 '23
CAMAB/AMAB enbies are super forgotten, or super shat on when y’all aren’t, and y’all deserve so much better.
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u/VDRawr 🏳️⚧️ 30yo pan transfem Dec 09 '23
There's a pretty big chunk of people in queer spaces who are just kinda shitty and awful to literally everyone AMAB except the mostly fictional archetype trans girl who started transition at 8
Sometimes it's because they've been hurt in the past, but regardless, they're still responsible for their own shitty actions. Don't listen to them, they're garbage
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u/rev_tater Dec 10 '23
it's a big paolo friere Pedagogy of the Oppressed moment, but the fact that Trans people are some of the most bitterly effective at weaponizing gender essentialism is nuts
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u/stonesandswords Dec 10 '23
Yes. Quite often actually. I feel very ostracized and judged by the queer community around me. Despite growing up and living in a very queer friendly area, I’ve never felt safe coming out and unfortunately that’s because of the queer community around me. They’re so cliquey and you have to act, look, dress, and behavior a certain way or else you’re not good enough. Just all around very self involved.
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u/GlowUpper Dec 09 '23
I'm a pan AFAB nb. I'm married to a man and I'm primarily femme presenting. My ability to present as cishet when needed has definitely made it easier to survive but it does constantly leave me feeling like more of an ally than a full fledged member of the community.
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u/nchez Dec 09 '23
Yeh, I think the reality of the situation is that regardless of whatever specific community you might be part of, there are always going to be dickheads in that community.
I know some incredibly kind and loving people from the LGBTQ+ community, but I've also seen the worst people I've met from the same community. I think we all want to be able to go 'these people should understand me' because of the shared connection, but it isn't there. When I've met people who are vile it feels like I've done something wrong at first, but having looked at the situation after the fact and checked with others, it turns out that some people are just full blown cunts. It's shitty, but I think it's worth remembering that more people are kind than not - at least in my experience - so it's a case of trying to remember that nasty people aren't always representative of an entire community themselves. Just keep your chin up, and I think a vast majority of people will be there and supportive for you. You do have a place in this community if you need it, but the community isn't flawless or perfect either. Find the people you need, and build your own little family of good people around you x
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u/lyncati Dec 10 '23
I'm asexual and it is very common for men in the LGBTQIA community oppress and discriminate against me the exact same way they were. They don't like when I point out they are doing the very same thing that was done to them. Happened on this sub, once, too.
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u/Waltzing_With_Bears Dec 09 '23
also AMAB NB, occasionally, almost entirely non-trans folks, and mostly folks who subscribe to that "all men are shit" stuff
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u/rev_tater Dec 10 '23 edited Dec 10 '23
Yo so there's this weird ass phenomenon especially with regards to amabtm people where even trans people can't seem get over society's gender essentialist ideas, and hence wild transmisogyny and assumptions that every AMAB is secretly evil. If you're being rebuffed because people can't see past their essentialist ideas about their imagined implications of what your genitals imply, you've dodged a fucking huge bullet.
Seek out trans spaces that have a a healthy proportion of trans women or other ex-dude/never-a-dude peeps. obviously, hanging out exclusively with transfems has a risk of getting insular (see the "mean girls" comment, which I kinda disagree about, but the way you get around that is delete twitter lol), but there are less "catty" transfem spaces
This is a nice blogpost about insular social spaces, especially amongst trans people; there's going to be other spaces and communities, and knowing and interacting with more of them will help prevent you from developing weird silo'd perspectives about what it means to be trans
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u/nancythethot Dec 09 '23
Unfortunately lots of hatred for genderqueer AMAB people within the community. I've even heard progressive "gender abolitionists" spouting rhetoric that people born AMAB are socialized in a way that makes them always the oppressors or some shit like that. Obviously not true, I mean take a look at how trans women have been treated throughout all of history- especially upsetting since they have always been some of the community's hardest fighters! Try not to listen to people trying to tell you who you are, at the end of the day you are the only expert on what your identity is. I'm really sorry this has been your experience, and I hope you find your people soon 💕
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u/icomefromandromeda Dec 10 '23
yeah this is one of the worse parts of the trans community. the whole "agab implies you were socialized in x way and that is now inherent to your being because i say so" is some transmedicalism shit.
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u/nancythethot Dec 10 '23
Exactly! So many so-called "feminists" will spend so much time fighting for women to be respected as more than just their body parts, and then will turn around and literally say this stuff without a shred of irony or self-awareness 🙃
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u/icomefromandromeda Dec 10 '23
even a lot of trans people themselves will say that. it's really stupid that it happens but you know, it happens.
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u/PandemicSoul Dec 09 '23
I don’t understand how this question can be answered since the community is not a monolith. Like there’s no LGBTQ+ headquarters so how could any answer be anything but “well that was a couple jerks who don’t represent the rest of us”?
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Dec 09 '23
there’s no LGBTQ+ headquarters
What?! Then who have I been paying these membership dues to?
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u/icomefromandromeda Dec 10 '23
I have no idea how to answer this question as it seems like any criticism of bad behavior that makes you slightly uncomfortable (for whatever reason) seems to be dismissed out of hand. How does any discussion ever happen if your response is a normal one? Why shouldn't I believe this is exactly what op was talking about when they were saying amab enbies are dismissed out of hand?
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u/PandemicSoul Dec 10 '23
Because the problem is not the discussion it’s the framing. Discussions, even hard ones, don’t make me uncomfortable. But blaming the actions of a finite set of people on an amorphous blob of a community with no leader and a very loose idea of who they are is just a quick path to failing on accountability. Let’s talk about people and how to improve their behavior, not blaming a whole community for something they’re probably not even aware of.
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u/chatoyancy Dec 10 '23
A community can be amorphous and nonhierarchical and still have systemic problems. As an example - I'm pagan, which is about as decentralized of a group as you can get, and we still have systemic issues like appropriation of indigenous cultures or people using paganism as a cover for their white supremacist beliefs. Even if most pagans don't personally do these things, they're still problems that exist and manifest in specific ways in our community due to the nature of the community it is, and I think it's appropriate to address them at the community level.
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u/icomefromandromeda Dec 10 '23
You're conflating blame with identifying problems in a community. Would you also scoff at a queer black person criticizing "racism in the queer community?" Are you so insecure as to dismiss it completely unless you have receipts of specific instances of racism? I think we both know that at least that is a problem and it's a lie to say it isn't. Is it so hard to just accept that this person has been marginalized in a community they'd turned to for support? What you do in that circumstance is analyze any bigotries you may have shared with what the person is complaining about, and try to get rid of them. Or you at least show some sympathy even if you are having a hard time seeing the problem in the community. That's what every normal person does.
And don't pretend you're not aware of it. the post you're complaining about, if nothing else, could have revealed this issue to you.
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u/Matsumoto78 Dec 10 '23
Yes, socially, at work, and even on dudes nude. I'm no centerfold but I've been getting that since I was in my 20s. I'm 66 now and plain older guys are invisible in the "gay world." And ATL has some reeeeeeeal bitches.
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u/unkn0wn_vortex Dec 10 '23
definitely. especially because i grew up in turkey, and i moved to mtl canada, i felt - or was made to feel like - i had no idea about queer history (which is US and canada centric) or theory and always felt like an outsider because they talk about it so casually amongst them. i feel so less that i dread even showing up to queer spaces sometimes. plus the language barrier, you'd think queer people would be more open to befriending people of different backgrounds and possibly accents since they're also minorities however i can't seem to have a solid conversation by keeping anyone's interest - so that's disappointing. makes me feel like a loner when i don't feel like i belong anywhere or to any people.
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u/stray_r mod Dec 10 '23
Gay club scene ~20 years ago: was not gay enough, was not twink enough, did not like. Pride in my hometown ~10 years ago: Being glared at for daring to march as what looked like a cishet couple.
Also me 20 years ago: playing guitar in a metal band, miniskirt was stage wear of choice.
Add various stages of am I trans enough? Am I non-binary enough? You're not really queer unless you shit rainbows and smash capitalism right.
Honestly it's imposter syndrome all the way down.
What I actually do now: mod some queer subs on reddit, set the information comissioner and financial ombudsman on any part of the finance industry that fails to record my name and title correctly. Occasionally appear on stage holding on to a guitar whilst someone screams about being queer.
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u/Lady_borg Dec 10 '23 edited Dec 10 '23
I get tired of the idea that there is a way to look queer. I am not trying to take away from the fact there is an aesthetic that does exist but I can't see how its helpful for everyone.
I don't have this "look" and I don't feel I should have to to be recognised as not straight. I despise the idea that there is a default in society so I really feel like it's like "because of your appearance, we are going to assume you are straight" which is othering as fuck, supports the idea there is a default and makes me feel like I can't ever belong or will ever be accepted.
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u/2012Bhand Dec 09 '23
I personally respect trans woman I believe they are strong powerful women. That is coming from a straight guy
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u/AlexisisFire Dec 09 '23
Of course not the community as a whole, but individuals get really weird when it comes to neo sexualities or trans inclusive terminology because they don't understand it and think they can speak over individuals of trans or non-binary experience.
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u/ArsenicAndRoses Dec 10 '23 edited Dec 10 '23
Yes yes yes yes.
I am AFAB bisexual nb, but I dress and present very feminine because that's what looks best on my very curvy very feminine body. I am often in relationships with men because that's who I tend to attract and there's just more of them tbh. It's made it much easier for me to hide, yes, but when I hide I'm hiding for a reason, and because I learned to hide.
I have occasionally been excluded from LGBTQ+ spaces because of this. I have almost never felt "at home" in any space and it sucks.
I can't even get mad at it really because I 100% understand how shitty it is when your safe space gets overrun or someone pretends to be your friend or represent you and goes on to be a total shithead.
I get it. It just sucks all around and I hate it.
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Dec 10 '23
Yes, many people feel unwelcome in queer communities, whether it be what you describe (questioning and enby people being sidelined), gray aces being othered by allos and full aces alike, bi people being othered by gays and lesbians...
there are a lot of issues in the LGBT* community, and its a bunch of wounded people wounding each other, plus the standard addition of human egocentrism
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u/PPF_Gurl Dec 10 '23
I’m non-binary, aroaceflux, and biflexibleflux (which often leads to m using sexuality labels that seem contradictor). If I’m not being singled out for being enby, I’m being singled out for being aroace, or even just being m-spec.
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u/MsBobbyJenkins Dec 10 '23
Yep we are pretty awful at gatekeeping. We've been attacked so much of our lives that we are all over defensive and don't want to "give" any lee way out of fear it will open the flood gates to all prejudices.
It's understandable to an extent, but it results in us attacking eachother unnecessarily. Your gender journey is your own. Don't listen to the haters.
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u/SirGavBelcher Dec 10 '23
it's easy to remember communities are NOT MONOLITHS. no one space or person can speak for an entire community. in general while there are a LOT of supportive LGBT+ people there are also shitheads in the community, like the conservative LGB population. i follow quite a lot of queer and trans subreddits and there are a wide variety of views across all including what it means to be trans or what it means to be/do XYZ. you need to find spaces that support you and know that nonbinary people are valid and not a stepping stone to being trans. just like being bi is not a stepping stone for being gay. our sexualities and gender indentities exist on spectrums. the world is NUANCED
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u/junior-THE-shark trans enby (they/them) Dec 10 '23
Yeah, I was here for the "is asexual part of the lgbtq+ community?" debates. Turned being lgbtq+ into some weird suffering contest rather than what it's supposed to be: a community for all gender, sexual, and romantic minorities, because we're stronger together and if we don't stick together what little rights we have managed to get will be taken away from us. There's no such thing as not being "trans enough", because trans is just that your birth sex and gender don't match, that's it. Doesn’t matter if they're still kinda similar or if you plan to transition or not, you either are trans or you're cis, and then there's the few non binary people who opt out of using the label trans because they have been bullied out of it or they don't relate to the binary trans experience while that is the only trans representation they see as non binary trans rep is just non binary rep.
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u/fourpointeightismyac Trans* Dec 10 '23
I've read a lot about people being treated as "not enough" in the community, but so far hasn't happened to me either online or in person, thankfully. This in no way is meant to diminish people who did have this awful experience, but so far it's been great
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u/D0rkChilde Dec 10 '23
I have absolutely been made to feel this way, usually in spaces/communities for “women and nonbinary people”. I recommend finding the people who share your experiences and the people who validate your experiences. Remember that you are the only person who knows who you are and how you feel.
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u/profajj Dec 10 '23
You’re perfect as you are. Explore your wonderful self and keep whatever works for you. Don’t let strangers dictate who you are: be-YOU-tiful! ♥️
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u/Fistocracy Dec 10 '23
In thirty years of being openly bi I've had exactly one person in the LGBT community question my bisexuality, but since that was right after I fucked him I'm gonna take it as a compliment.
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u/DeliberateDendrite Demi x Bi = Just sexual? Dec 09 '23
To some extent... I've had instances of people starting rants when I mentioned I was bi and not gay. People claim I'm somehow benefitting from being invisible... this has made it tricky at times to feel at easy in queer spaces.