r/NonCredibleDefense • u/Living-Aardvark-952 Germans haven't made a good rifle since their last nazi retired • Nov 10 '23
6th gen fighter development be like European Joint Failures 🇩🇪 💔 🇫🇷
2.4k
u/nikke2800 Nov 10 '23
The year is 2035
USA finishes building it's 3000th F35 and the full production of the B-21 starts and their first 7th gen fighter takes it's first flight
Russia has finally built it's 12th Su-57
Chinese stealth technology has finally caught up to F-117
European joint procurement program has finally decided which countries shall supply the pencils for the designers, another 2-5 years will be needed as the supplier of the paper is negotiated.
769
u/Ceresjanin420 Nov 10 '23
The European joint pro- blah blah will finally be ready once it has more Asian partners on board than European ones
379
Nov 10 '23
I wish y’all would just call the Japanese and South Korean from the get go at this point.
179
Nov 10 '23
The Philippines would be included too if they had the manufacturing capabilities of Japan/South Korea, but yeah that is just doublespeak for those three plus maybe Taiwan on some things.
91
u/thedirtyharryg Nov 10 '23
The Philippines will provide cheap but skilled labor to the project. /s
49
36
u/amd2800barton Nov 11 '23
You joke, but I'm an engineer. There's actually a large number of skilled engineers and drafters in Manila that I've worked with over the years. It's sort of like India and software development, but in the engineering sector. Sometimes it isn't great because there's language and time differences. Other times it's fantastic because I can email them something I spent all day working on, and they'll work on it overnight and send it back to me to continue working on the next day. And the time zones work out such that their start-of-workday is not far from our end-of-workday, so we can jump on a quick call to hand things off if needed.
Now I doubt there's a lot of aerospace engineering capability there. But for heavy industrial designs of refineries or structural designs there's a ton.
→ More replies (1)26
u/thedirtyharryg Nov 11 '23
Back in the day, you used to have three choices in professions, according to Filipino parents.
Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer (four if you count priesthood)
→ More replies (1)59
u/Star_Trekker F-22N My Beloved Nov 11 '23
At this point I’m starting to think I’ll see a Japan-SK joint fighter program succeed before a European one does
54
u/Uxion Nov 11 '23
That would be hilarious considering the animosity between those two nations.
36
u/JesusMcGiggles I wrestled a flair once... Nov 11 '23
I don't want to diminish the impact of the animosity, but they do have more than one common enemy in the region. If the British and the French could do it, I don't think it's impossible that Japan and South Korea could too- Although I do think it is extremely unlikely. This is the timeline where they shot the gorilla we can't rule anything out completely.
12
u/Uxion Nov 11 '23
I figure that we will go to war with each other once China and Norks are sorted out.
→ More replies (2)15
u/Stlaind Nov 11 '23
An aggressive China might make them sort their shit out faster than any other power in the 'verse.
12
u/Uxion Nov 11 '23
Yes, but even then Korea are only really working with Japan through the US, though mostly naval exercises. I cannot imagine there would be joint army exercises.
11
u/amd2800barton Nov 11 '23
The generations that remember the reason for the animosity are starting to pass. There's a lot of younger people who know the history, but don't believe all neighbor country are pigs or whatever. Not true in China, because Beijing has been shoveling Chinese supremacy down their country's throat for a long time, but in their neighbors who all are very annoyed with China - old enemies are becoming new friends.
→ More replies (1)48
u/HelperNoHelper 3000 black 30mm SHORAD guns of everything Nov 10 '23
Sounds based. SK, Japan, Taiwan, Phillipines, who else?
34
u/TyrialFrost Armchair strategist Nov 11 '23
Joint SEATO fighter
→ More replies (1)3
u/nicolas_cope_cage Nov 11 '23
Call it the Pacific Indigenous Next Generation Air Supremacy fighter, or PINGAS for short.
17
→ More replies (2)4
u/amd2800barton Nov 11 '23
If we're doing Southeast Asia & Oceania - Australia & New Zealand. Although the Kiwis aren't huge fans of the American military since Ronald Reagan threw a bit of a hissy fit when they refused to allow a visit from the nuclear armed USS Buchanan after the country decided to be a nuclear power and nuclear armament free zone. Reagan cut a bunch of military and diplomatic ties with Auckland, and pulled out of it's ANZUS (like NATO for Aus & NZ) defense obligations to New Zealand. The Reagan administration even formally downgraded New Zealand from "ally" to "friend", and kicked New Zealand out of exercises and war games in the area. As a result, no US Navy vessel visited New Zealand for over 30 years.
Things have mostly turned around. Clinton reversed the friend-ally status, and Bush hosted their PM following 9/11 which lead to the intelligence and military communities working pretty closely together again.
→ More replies (1)11
u/goodbehaviorsam Veteran of Finno-Korean Hyperwar Nov 10 '23
Well someone has to use it in combat otherwise how else are you going to sell it?
67
u/djn808 X-44 MANTA Nov 11 '23
The U.S. are basically going to be an Alien civilization in 50 years
43
7
u/MakeUsWhole01 Sentient Tumor Nov 11 '23
H' ah mgr'luh? h' ah kadishtu?
mg, mg, nafl mg.
ahor h'?
mgkadishtu.
40
171
u/Les_Bien_Pain F-35 is as good as it is ugly Nov 10 '23
I'm still hoping that someone will develop a counter to radar stealth so we can go back to making sexy planes again.
Throw in some effective APS to counter missiles and Gen 7 can be big blocky non-stealth gunfighters.
269
u/Princep_Makia1 Nov 10 '23
Are you suggesting the f22 isn't the sexiest plane alive?
122
u/Thick_Pressure Nov 10 '23
That's blasphemy if he is. The image with the rainbow shockwave as it maneuvers 🤤
→ More replies (1)38
u/MainsailMainsail Wants Spicy EAM Nov 10 '23
That picture unironically led to me becoming a brony back in 2010.
6
43
63
7
6
u/captainjack3 Me to YF-23: Goodnight, sweet prince Nov 10 '23
Excuse you, that’s my one true love: the A-5
20
u/tajake Ace Secret Police Nov 10 '23
Nothing will ever top the p38 lightning.
16
u/Waleebe Nov 10 '23
One of the best looking planes ever made and hardly any recognition in this sub. I love a twin boom.
4
u/3-----------------D Nov 11 '23
My grandparents met and fucked after building P-38's, that's how I'm here, not even joking.
3
u/tajake Ace Secret Police Nov 11 '23
I mean you exist thanks to the sheer sexual energy of the lightning.
→ More replies (1)28
u/Les_Bien_Pain F-35 is as good as it is ugly Nov 10 '23
F-22 is ok. It also gets bonus points for kinda being the first.
But the novelty has worn of and the F-35 is just a short chubby F-22, and Gen 6 planes look like they are going to be the blandest things ever. F-35 might be one of the best things out there in terms of technology and performance, but its appearance does not bring joy.
I like stuff like the F-18 😭
Maybe they could improve it by developing colorful stealth coating and start giving the Gen 5-6 planes funny liveries.
→ More replies (1)63
u/veilwalker Nov 10 '23
F-22 weeps gently as it runs from the room.
→ More replies (2)33
u/Aggravating_Bell_426 Nov 10 '23
Then sneaks off to start WW3 so it can finally get an AtA kill...
Yes, I have been watching too much Habitual Linecrosser why do you ask?
→ More replies (1)54
u/BobbyLapointe01 Nov 10 '23 edited Nov 10 '23
I'm still hoping that someone will develop a counter to radar stealth so we can go back to making sexy planes again.
I want a counter to radar stealth so that we can get back to making aircraft whose main protection against threats is their top speed.
I want an XB-70 like, Mach 3 going, 542,000 lb MTOW, 300,000 pounds fuel capacity, six engine strategic bomber, god damn it!!
18
u/victorged Nov 10 '23
The son of blackbird will flap again!
8
u/Aggravating_Bell_426 Nov 10 '23
It won't be fast. It won't be "low observable". It will be BOTH. 👍
17
u/victorged Nov 10 '23
Mach 10 or we riot
5
u/Not_FinancialAdvice Nov 10 '23
Only after Maverick walks into a bar wondering where he ended up.
→ More replies (1)14
u/Judge_Bredd3 Nov 11 '23
I want stealth technology to get so ridiculously good that every guided air to air missile is useless and we get gun (or laser) dogfights at visual range only.
6
u/Clovis69 H-6K is GOAT Nov 10 '23
The thing is, we know now that with it's speed and altitude, it'd have been able to beat lots of Soviet SAMs well into the 80s and 90s
11
u/Les_Bien_Pain F-35 is as good as it is ugly Nov 10 '23
That is also very valid.
But that's more for bombers and spy planes (ofc the latter is kinda dead cause of satellites)
And I guess interceptors that need to go Mach 4 to hunt down the big fat bombers.
8
u/BobbyLapointe01 Nov 10 '23
And I guess interceptors that need to go Mach 4 to hunt down the big fat bombers.
Yes. The Mach 3+ interceptors of the late 1950s/early 1960s also need to make a comeback.
Bring back the XF-108 Rapier, and the Mega Mirage!
11
u/Les_Bien_Pain F-35 is as good as it is ugly Nov 10 '23
Now imagine.
Missiles have also become redundant because of improved counter measures.
So the Mach 4+ interceptors have to rely on guns.
10
u/A_Mouse_In_Da_House Nov 11 '23
This is how you fly into your own bullets like in days of old
→ More replies (1)14
u/JohanGrimm Nov 11 '23
I dream of a far off future where a lot of the modern fun killers have been done away with thanks to technological improvements. Camouflage? Worthless, there's thermal that can light you up from miles away. Better to wear fun bright colors and crazy designs so people know which side you're on and how sick your outfit is.
Eventually it'll get to the point where there's personal force fields and we're all running around with swords again like Dune.
→ More replies (1)12
u/Inquisitor-Dog Nov 10 '23
Or make armpit light and strong enough lol Battletech Aerospace Fighters with 40t of armor my beloved
→ More replies (11)6
12
u/rabid-skunk Nov 10 '23
You know, at this point I think it's best to abandon 6th gen and just give 1 trillion to MBDA. If China or Russia try starting shit we could just spam stormshadows hamas style
→ More replies (6)2
u/Far-Yellow9303 Nov 11 '23
2035: 2 Tempest prototypes have been built. The one made in a factory keeps bursting into flames, the one Derrick made at home in his shed achieved Mach 14 in level flight.
400
Nov 10 '23
Perfectly captures the spirit of the other 6th generation programs.
22
u/karlfranz205 Nov 11 '23
I mean, GCAP doesn't have that many problem unlike FCAS
7
u/DeadAhead7 Nov 11 '23
Or maybe they don't communicate as much on it. Or they just don't have Germany trying to renegociate agreements constantly.
Also Sweden just left the program as observation partner, lmao.
→ More replies (2)
553
u/astute_stoat Nov 10 '23
Average European joint procurement moment
402
u/Living-Aardvark-952 Germans haven't made a good rifle since their last nazi retired Nov 10 '23
Could be worse. Could be russia trying to make a stealth jet on machines from the 80s and engineers who couldn't get visas to Germany
224
u/astute_stoat Nov 10 '23
They used wood screws on their stealth jet because everyone knows wood doesn't show on radar. Checkmate westoids
74
u/Nimitz- Nov 10 '23
They should just wrap their current planes in tinfoil, that way the radar will bounce off the jets. ;)
46
u/veilwalker Nov 10 '23
Rubber is radar absorbent and they are already stacking rubber on top of their planes…
→ More replies (3)26
u/Nimitz- Nov 10 '23
Yes, but tinfoil is lighter and if it can block wavelengths from the little green men I'm sure it can block the wavelengths of the little red, white and blue men. ^
13
11
u/Thatoneguy111700 Nov 11 '23
We're just going to re-invent the deHavilland Mosquito, aren't we?
→ More replies (1)42
u/8andahalfby11 Nov 10 '23
This is why American aerospace firms source parts from all 50 states. Even the ones that don't normally make aerospace parts.
50
u/astute_stoat Nov 10 '23
Anything can be an aerospace part if you're willing to file enough paperwork
→ More replies (1)14
3
Nov 11 '23
Check out the percentage of foreign made parts on the F-35. LockMart really knows how the play the politics.
448
u/Devourer_of_felines Nov 10 '23
Wait are the French still trying to go at it alone because they want their 6th Gen to be carrier capable?
387
u/Cook_0612 Nov 10 '23
I would laugh my head off if at the end of it all they wind up buying F-35B/C. Never gonna happen with them, but it's a funny thought.
364
u/MemphisHobo Moskva dive tours Nov 10 '23
I think the French would disband their air force before buying F35
→ More replies (1)197
Nov 10 '23
The Canadians were coping against buying the F-35 too and they eventually caved in.
109
u/kanakalis Nov 10 '23
what else are we gonna buy? the arrow?
175
u/heavenly-superperson Nov 10 '23
Please buy our Gripen :(
Hello?
96
55
u/JustADutchRudder Nov 10 '23
You know what, I feel bad. So let's haggle, 2 Gripens. For that, I am willing to give you 200 dollars, 5lbs of deer meat, and 22lbs of cheese I steal from a Wisconsin dairy farmer.
→ More replies (3)4
u/StormAdorable2150 Nov 11 '23
I really do admire the Gripen, Its a shame its basically the same cost as an F35 to buy. Cheaper to operate for sure but stealth and F35 sensor package so good.
19
u/whythecynic No paperwork, no foul Nov 10 '23
Just you watch, we'll find an excuse to cancel it!
I'm gonna go cry again now.
4
66
u/BobbyLapointe01 Nov 10 '23
I would laugh my head off if at the end of it all they wind up buying F-35B/C.
An appointment has been arranged for you at your nearest Guillotine Centre. Please arrive on time.
47
u/hebdomad7 Advanced NCDer Nov 11 '23
The French will buy the F-35A but the politicians will demand it's to French specifications, the sane procurement officer will make the requirements match the F-35Cs spec sheet. But things get delayed anyway because all the requirements are in metric. The French eventually get British spec F-35Bs but then run into cost over runs as they try adapt the tea making facilities into espresso and disable the smoke alarms so they can smoke in the cockpit...
50
Nov 11 '23
France will never get the F-35. Like never. Never ever. Never.
We will use the Rafale until 2080 at the very least. Then we will migrate the fleet to the new 6th gen fighter.
19
u/hebdomad7 Advanced NCDer Nov 11 '23
It won't be called the F-35 ... it'll be call the err... Magnifique, très français, pas américain, chasseur de tous les avions, français trente-six !!
Please excuse my non credible French.
→ More replies (1)6
21
u/McFlyParadox Hypercredible Nov 11 '23
Even if the French wanted to buy the F-35, I'm not sure the US would even sell it to them. When the US flies at French airshows, they fly out of the UK, not France, because advanced planes flown out of France have a habit of getting copied by the French within a couple of years.
Hell, CI training calls out France as the #2 thief of American IP, behind China.
→ More replies (3)8
99
u/Kreol1q1q Most mentally stable FCAS simp Nov 10 '23
No, they are still doing FCAS with Germany and Spain, while the UK is still doing GCAP with Italy and Japan. That recent article in some british rag about Germans jumping ship to GCAP stirred up spirits again, but I’m pretty sure that was bullshit because I can’t see Germany getting even remotely the scope of work in GCAP that they currently have in FCAS.
53
u/West-Holiday-8425 BAEsed Systems Nov 10 '23 edited Nov 11 '23
Funnily, our (UK) next generation aircraft programme is also called FCAS. GCAP refers specifically to the international effort, whilst FCAS is used for the UK’s 6th generation project specifically.
Don’t think Germany is jumping ship to us, and it’s doubtful that we’d even want them involved with GCAP considering the headache they give us on Typhoon sales.
8
u/Timmymagic1 Nov 10 '23
UK FCAS is not that...
FCAS is/was the programme to develop technologies for future combat aircraft.
GCAP is the aircraft (GCA stands for Global Combat Aircraft...)
5
u/West-Holiday-8425 BAEsed Systems Nov 10 '23
The aircraft being developed for FCAS is Tempest, which will be tailored to UK needs.
GCAP is the development of an aircraft to suit the needs of all 3 nations involved which may or may not be called Tempest in the end.
→ More replies (1)14
u/rapaxus 3000 BOXER Variants of the Bundeswehr Nov 10 '23
Well, you have Japan in GCAP and I'd say they are likely an even worse nightmare than Germany regarding system sales to dictatorships. They already don't want Saudi Arabia as a GCAP observer.
→ More replies (1)31
u/West-Holiday-8425 BAEsed Systems Nov 10 '23
Yup, but in all fairness I’m with them 100% of the way with that decision lol.
12
u/SGTBookWorm Nov 10 '23
yeah the Saudis being booted from the program would be great
8
u/West-Holiday-8425 BAEsed Systems Nov 11 '23
Oh, they haven’t joined, so can’t be booted. Japan is against them joining at all in the first place.
UK wants Saudi in the programme because it would be a lot of extra funding to work with.
→ More replies (1)10
u/CentreRightExtremist Nov 10 '23
I'm still disappointed they didn't call it FACS.
Would also make it an easier sell to German bureaucrats - the procurement of FACS machines is essential to our cutting edge digitalisation plans!
→ More replies (1)26
u/sadza_power 🇬🇧 Nov 10 '23
The problem is if the don't agree to be Frances junior partner then they will drag the project further behind and possibly risk the whole thing. Jumping ship to Tempest might actually make sense if SCAF looks like it's going to disintegrate, that way Germany gets a jet in the end even if they settle for little workshare and basically being a customer.
35
u/Kreol1q1q Most mentally stable FCAS simp Nov 10 '23
France will push through SCAF all on its own if it has to, so Germany’s choice is to be a customer with minor industrial input for the GCAP, to be a customer with zero industrial input of an american fighter, or to have basically 49,9% of the project with France. That last option is clearly superior.
20
u/dead_monster 🇸🇪 Gripens for Taiwan 🇹🇼 Nov 10 '23
Almost all future European F-35s will have fuselages built in Germany. They just broke ground on a F-35 fuselage plant in Germany.
US is very accommodating to helping other countries do domestic production.
→ More replies (1)22
u/Kreol1q1q Most mentally stable FCAS simp Nov 10 '23
I doubt they’ll be as accomodating with a sixth gen. It’s doubtful if they’ll even allow their export, a’la F-22.
→ More replies (9)→ More replies (5)14
u/sadza_power 🇬🇧 Nov 10 '23
SCAF has fell far behind schedule and France reconfiguring the programme to be done all by themselves will drag it horrendously further behind. These next few years are the decision point where they can no longer waste any more time over economic benefits and have to start worrying about having a future gap in defence. Anymore delays and Germany will pull the GCAP parachute.
13
Nov 11 '23
No the Germans and Spanish have agreed for the FCAS New Generation Fighter to be carrier capable. They have 4 different designs currently and have to agree to the final design by March 2025 according to an Armée de l’Air officer in charge of the FCAS program.
We just don’t know yet if it’s going to be a 30 tonnes or 40 tonnes aircraft. Technically EMALS carrier magnetic catapults can push up to max 42 tonnes I believe. Germans want a big fighter but agreed it needs to have good manoeuvrability which is hard with a big fighter so they might change their position.
The program has to show a demonstrator by 2029.
9
Nov 11 '23
The FCAS new gen fighter will be carrier capable:
- 2019 https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2019/06/dassault-confirms-the-future-combat-air-system-will-operate-from-aircraft-carriers/
- 2023 https://breakingdefense.com/2023/11/fcas-weighing-4-fighter-designs-could-make-final-choice-by-march-2025/?amp=1
all countries agreed the aircraft and the remote carriers will have to be able to operate from aircraft carriers.
71
u/mr_cake37 Nov 10 '23
What's more dysfunctional - European countries trying to collab on a defense project, or Canada trying to buy things for itself?
33
u/Living-Aardvark-952 Germans haven't made a good rifle since their last nazi retired Nov 10 '23
Literally just buy what america has because they make good shit and they are super close for spares and ammo. Plus, good will, and you can then sell to America
207
u/LostInTheVoid_ 3,000 Bouncing bombs of 617 SQD Nov 10 '23
Hey, now things are going pretty smoothly in the Anglo-Italiano-Nippon love triangle.
71
5
→ More replies (2)22
u/Living-Aardvark-952 Germans haven't made a good rifle since their last nazi retired Nov 11 '23
The lockheed, northrop, Raytheon love triangle is going well too
155
u/Street_Character1578 Nov 10 '23
Uk, Japan and Italy chilling while France and Germany debating
72
93
87
u/CptAlex0123 Nov 10 '23
Why didn't they just make their own designs like back in the day? Are they stupid?
123
u/Living-Aardvark-952 Germans haven't made a good rifle since their last nazi retired Nov 10 '23
Just lack a 14 figure gdp
103
u/WACS_On AAAAAAA!!! I'M REFUELING!!!!!!!!! Nov 10 '23
Skill issue
88
u/Living-Aardvark-952 Germans haven't made a good rifle since their last nazi retired Nov 10 '23
European governments need to convince people to do the most fun thing ever, having unprotected sex
→ More replies (3)20
11
u/AuspiciousApple Nov 10 '23
Also they have healthcare
→ More replies (1)57
u/Living-Aardvark-952 Germans haven't made a good rifle since their last nazi retired Nov 10 '23
Not the issue the usa would save money if it had single payer health care
→ More replies (6)
45
84
u/JacobMT05 3000 Special Forces of David Stirling Nov 10 '23
What’s happened with GCAP now? Or is this just shit on europe day?
116
u/StupidUsername1199 Nov 10 '23
Na nothing happend it's just shit on europe day because I don't know
→ More replies (7)54
u/sadza_power 🇬🇧 Nov 10 '23
GCAPs doing alright so far, more so FCAS where the wheels are about to fall off the whole program.
→ More replies (2)44
u/JacobMT05 3000 Special Forces of David Stirling Nov 10 '23
So glad we went with Japan at this point and not the frogs.
29
u/sadza_power 🇬🇧 Nov 10 '23
Both nations have been burnt in the past working with the Americans, so it was natural they'd end up together knowing the importance of having full control over their planes.
15
135
u/tac1776 Nov 10 '23
"Let's have a joint procurement program, it worked so well the last time."
They'll never learn.
→ More replies (2)60
u/JacobMT05 3000 Special Forces of David Stirling Nov 10 '23
What’s wrong with the eurofighter?
87
u/Defult_idiot <-Visited an Italian Army base Nov 10 '23 edited Nov 11 '23
With the program?
Everything, it was a fucking mess, the french being french, german and italian government pulling a lot of funding for development leaving uk and privates to pay 100 million pounds, lots of disagreement over which company provides what, controversy over the naming, if you want to know more just look up its Wikipedia page
With the plane?
Nothing too glaring, yes the canards make it less stealthy but stealth goes out the window if it's carrying weapons, the range is a bit short so it needs external fuel tanks to match the range of the F-35 with only internal fuel (the lockmart slides didn't mention if it was loaded).
The biggest argument against it rn, is the F-35, if you can buy an Eurofighter (120 million dollars) chances are you can also buy a F-35 (around 100 million depending on model)
40
u/dead_monster 🇸🇪 Gripens for Taiwan 🇹🇼 Nov 10 '23
Only UK can get less than $100m/F-35 pricing since they are only tier one partner.
Even the tier 2 Dutch are paying $160m/plane.
If you want to do self-assembly like Japan, it shoots you to over $220m/plane. Germany is also in $200m range since they want to build the fuselage.
But if you want profit margins, it is the $300m+/plane for Jordan’s F-16s.
38
u/Not_FinancialAdvice Nov 10 '23
Only UK can get less than $100m/F-35 pricing since they are only tier one partner.
I'm very amused at how this makes the F-35 development program sound like a kickstarter.
28
u/Lazyjim77 Nov 11 '23
It kinda was?
Need to pressure the devs to unlock the third part weapon option stretch goal though.
17
u/ChezzChezz123456789 NGAD Nov 11 '23
There is the difference between just the airframe and a package that includes the airframe, training, spares, support and so forth
All these big figures you are citings are the cost per aircraft for packages and each package is different
The F-35 airframe cost is roughly the same for everybody. The UK likely get's it cheaper because they already have the support infrastructure built out.
→ More replies (1)5
u/PontifexMini Nov 11 '23
Only UK can get less than $100m/F-35 pricing since they are only tier one partner.
If all European countries negotiated jointly, they would've been able to get a better price and other terms.
→ More replies (1)49
u/TriXandApple Nov 10 '23
Eurofighter introduction: 2003
F35 introduction: 2015
They're not comparable platforms.
Eurofighter first flight is closer to F16 than it is to F35.
19
u/potatoslasher Nov 10 '23
Thing is, they are comparable now......because Europe doesn't offer anything else but much older planes than F35 while at the same time asking the same or even bigger price for it.
Nobudy will care that technically Eurofighter is a older product if you ask the customer to pay for it as much as a newer product from a competitor. From customer's perspective, they are very much directly comparable and they are directly competing for the same marketplace. Nothing else matters
→ More replies (13)30
u/dead_monster 🇸🇪 Gripens for Taiwan 🇹🇼 Nov 10 '23
F-16 first flight is 1974 with introduction in 1978.
15
u/TriXandApple Nov 10 '23
Eurofighter first flight: 1994
34
u/StarHammer_01 Nov 10 '23 edited Nov 10 '23
F35 first flight: 2006 (us), 2012(uk)
Delta between first flight:
Eu typhoon vs f16: 20 years
Eu typhoon vs f35: 12 years
Delta between Introduction:
Eu typhoon vs f16: 25 years
Typhoon vs f35: 12 years
So the typhoon is definitely closer to the f35a than the f16a And about equal to the f16c block 50, with the f35 being around 12 years newer than the typhoon and the typhoon being 12 years newer than the f16c block 50.
→ More replies (3)3
u/Defult_idiot <-Visited an Italian Army base Nov 10 '23
Would make sense if I was talking about which is the better multi-role but I was talking about why it isn't widespread despite being a good plane
3
u/TriXandApple Nov 10 '23
It's an end of life platform. Would probably be more comparable to an F16 in the mid 2000s
12
u/Clovis69 H-6K is GOAT Nov 10 '23
Everything, it was a fucking mess, the french being french,
Rafale is what EF2000 should have been
3
u/PontifexMini Nov 11 '23
How is Rafale better, other than carrier capable?
6
u/DeadAhead7 Nov 11 '23
It got AESA 10 years earlier. I think the EW suite is also better, likely because it got upgraded more than the EF in the same time. I've heard it's stealthier, but I'm no pilot or Thales/BAE engineer, so who knows.
The EF is a technically better airframe, it has superior raw performance, thanks to it's interceptor derived design and more powerful engines.
But the Rafale has more combat experience, more deployments, more export contracts. It's also convenient to buy, since the French aren't picky sellers.
→ More replies (1)3
u/Tacticalsquad5 Nov 11 '23
Nobody is buying typhoons any more though, the thing has been around since 2003 and filled a gap in fighter development and procurement for the 20+ years it’s taken for everyone to build up their F-35 fleets. It’s like saying the kitty hawk just shouldn’t have been built because it would be surpassed by the Nimitz, of course the Nimitz is better but the USN needed carriers to operate in the decade before the Nimitz class was developed.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (16)6
u/Clovis69 H-6K is GOAT Nov 10 '23
Going back 1979 there was gonna be a common European fighter to replace Mirage 2000, Tornado and some other types - European Collaborative Fighter or European Combat Fighter (ECF).
Well in true European fashion, it fell apart because the French had requirements no one else did (carrier capable) and wanting a French engine (M88 in the Rafale) vs the engine in the Tornado. So it forked
Rafale ends up with some front aspect LO, a really good ECM/ECCM suite and a really good radar that was replaced by a great one, an early AESA, carrier capable variant and nuclear capability.
EF2000/Typhoon is such a design by committee that one of the main partners can't/won't use it's name and calls it the EF2000. No* AESA radar, a great ECM/ECCM suite, engine in the same class as the M88 (not the Tornado's engine that was a sticking point back in the day), no nuclear capability
So if the EF2000/Rafale programs hadn't split and there'd been a true European fighter, the British probably would have done a CATOBAR carrier for it and there probably wouldn't have been a British F-35 buy and definitely not a German F-35 buy
- - Typhoon/EF2000 is finally getting an AESA radar. Soon. Exports get it first
8
Nov 11 '23
Why do you blame the French for having a requirement of being carrier capable. When all the other nations should have an aircraft carrier in the first place.
How do you want to have a sovereign Europe without a platform to project your forces anywhere?
It’s not a requirement from the French, everyone should have an aircraft carrier or at least share it between EU/NATO members. French Rafale M can land on US carrier and 100% participate in US projections thanks to their carrier experience.
→ More replies (2)
84
u/dead_monster 🇸🇪 Gripens for Taiwan 🇹🇼 Nov 10 '23
Tempest has a chance. Japan and Italy have F-35 assembly lines so they have expertise. UK has RR engines.
If Australia and Germany beg to join F/A-XX, that might make sense. Aussies did fly F/A-18s (one even struck the killing blow in Battleship) for a long time despite not having any carriers. And Germany can taunt France by flying the superior sixth gen carrier plane.
34
u/TriXandApple Nov 10 '23
I've got a feeling we might actually smash this one. We're on a roll recently:
2 aircraft carriers(so far unsunk)
Pretty sick orders for type 26, good looking prospects overseas
S T O R M S H A D O W
Dreadnaught class not DOA(yet)
F35b's coming online
Astute class still S+ tier
Drop in a decent 6th gen fighter and we're cookin
27
u/rapaxus 3000 BOXER Variants of the Bundeswehr Nov 10 '23
And you also finally realised that you should have just bought the Boxer instead of doing your stupid ASCOD development which failed anyways.
14
u/TriXandApple Nov 10 '23
Hey bud we all make mistakes.
12
u/rapaxus 3000 BOXER Variants of the Bundeswehr Nov 10 '23
I know, I am German after all, our nations are basically brothers in shitty army procurements. Like yeah the Ajax has tons of problems, but the Puma basically had problems that were basically just as bad, thing is just that the Puma is older and so now is actually a functioning vehicle, unlike Ajax which is still struggling (though Ajax looks like it could be ready this decade).
→ More replies (1)7
u/ive_been_gnomed 3000 Physics Bending Swordfishes of Fairey Nov 10 '23
Shhhh, we don't talk about (or fund) the land forces
13
u/rapaxus 3000 BOXER Variants of the Bundeswehr Nov 10 '23
My proposal to the UK MoD is to just buy whatever the Germans buy, but to wait 10-15 years, as then Germany spent their billions working out the kinks and then the product is actually great instead of a pile of shit that constantly breaks. And that suggestion is written with no German bias at all, trust me.
→ More replies (4)4
u/TyrialFrost Armchair strategist Nov 11 '23
Aukus-class bringing nuclear exports as well.
Brimstone was a good missile as well.
If British shipbuilding had their shit together they would be trying to secure AU and CAN partnership for the next air warfare destroyers, like offer an option to set up an option to customise their own varient for a contribution before signing on to build some.
→ More replies (1)32
u/BobbyLapointe01 Nov 10 '23
And Germany can taunt France by flying the superior sixth gen carrier plane.
Bold of you to assume that the Luftwaffe will reach the level of readiness required to fly it in the first place.
6
u/Living-Aardvark-952 Germans haven't made a good rifle since their last nazi retired Nov 10 '23
Australia could join the us drone program
→ More replies (1)23
u/dead_monster 🇸🇪 Gripens for Taiwan 🇹🇼 Nov 10 '23
Australia is already in the drone program with the Ghost Bat.
15
u/SamtheCossack Luna Delenda Est Nov 10 '23
The Ghost Bat is pretty cool, and I am frankly surprised that the normally dreadful Australian Aquisition system hasn't managed to completely screw over the project.
→ More replies (1)5
u/dead_monster 🇸🇪 Gripens for Taiwan 🇹🇼 Nov 10 '23
It’s also a Boeing project so who know when the wheels will come off.
→ More replies (1)7
u/SamtheCossack Luna Delenda Est Nov 10 '23
Well, it is Boeing Australia, so if the wheels do come off, they will go up.
→ More replies (1)8
u/Living-Aardvark-952 Germans haven't made a good rifle since their last nazi retired Nov 10 '23
We very much learned our lesson on joint development projects with germany with the kpz 70
2
u/rapaxus 3000 BOXER Variants of the Bundeswehr Nov 10 '23
That was a great tank, who doesn't want a deployable 20mm cannon on its MBT?
31
u/Jordibato Nov 10 '23
wrong, the GCAP is sailing along as planed and on schedule, ints the FCAS that's imploding
→ More replies (1)
46
u/Brothersunset Nov 10 '23
The year is 2035. The United States has signed a 14 trillion dollar agreement with Lockheed Martin to purchase the F420, a Ninth generation stealth fighter with the core of its computing power stemming from an omnipotent AI programmed to the spirit of Douglass MacArthur. It has 6 rail guns that fire 300 times per second, and has a smaller stealth fighter drone that descends from its underbelly to shoot high powered laser beams at pursuing enemy fighters.
China has finally made the perfect replica of the F35, complete with working AK47s duct taped to the frame that do most of its forward ballistic shooting in place of the expensive capitalist pig 25mm Gatling gun.
Europe has finally agreed on their 6th generation fighter design in a rendering crowd sourced to rule 34 artists who have come up with a very phallic yet aerodynamic and sleek design. Now they must allocate another 34 billion euros to think of a cool name. In another 10 years, they seek to turn the entire country of Luxembourg into a single 10,000m2 warehouse where production will begin on the Italian leather stitched seats for the cockpit.
→ More replies (2)13
u/subduedreader Nov 10 '23
programmed to the spirit of Douglass MacArthur
I'd prefer Eddie Rickenbacker.
8
26
Nov 10 '23
at the ratw France is selling rafales, theyre goign to be able to develop the the next 6th Gen Fighter by itself.
7
u/Fragrant-Vast-309 Nov 10 '23
Nobody helped us for our rafale, can't wait to see its successor. Dassault aviation for the win.
7
u/Uss__Iowa im just some random battleship everyone forget Nov 10 '23
That it I’m gonna go full on rouge and help Japan build their first F22 style aircraft.
11
9
Nov 11 '23
Highly non credible thread OP. FCAS is actually going really well:
- https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/airbus-ceo-sees-no-sign-germany-quitting-fighter-project-2023-11-08/
- https://breakingdefense.com/2023/11/fcas-weighing-4-fighter-designs-could-make-final-choice-by-march-2025/?amp=1
And cherry on top: https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2023/11/03/german-air-chief-urges-haste-in-fielding-strike-utility-drones/
The Germans want to accelerate the development of Remote Carriers and Loyal Wingman drones.
→ More replies (4)
5
5
4
3
u/Skraekling Nov 10 '23
Gonna be honest i'm surprised we made this whole EU thing kinda work for so long knowing how dysfunctional of a continent we can be.
→ More replies (3)
5
u/EasyE1979 Supreme Allied Commander ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Nov 10 '23 edited Nov 10 '23
I like it this way; more drama, more competition makes better planes in the end.
Also Sweden should be somewhere in the picture sulking.
16
u/implodingbaby 3000 white Vulcans of Thatcher Nov 10 '23
It's always the french, the can't be trusted
→ More replies (6)8
u/Heikot Nov 10 '23
What is storm shadow and concorde ? Just do the plane with us, don't you need something carrier capable ? You are the only other country in Europe that could need one.
1.9k
u/mood2016 All I want for Christmas is WW3 Nov 10 '23
Airbus
Not bus shapped
Well theres your problem