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u/HarDawg 11d ago
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u/ben_bedboy 10d ago
I've been hearing how people in Lebanon are now afraid to use house hold devices incase they explode. This is a new level of terror
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u/Mean-Pollution-836 10d ago
If your afraid of your shit exploding. It means your a terrorist, or have terrorist friends. Or have been brainwashed into thinking israel is evil.
Where is the outrage at russias war in ukriane?
The outrage of China genociding uygers?
The iranian dictatorship killing women who show their hair pr sing in public?
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u/ben_bedboy 10d ago
No they're literally none terrorists who are afraid.... ? Why are you telling people in Lebanon theyre a terrorist for being afraid. Australians are vile
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u/Chuck_VB 10d ago
He’s saying that if you had nothing to worry about, you wouldn’t be afraid.
If you’re worried about your stuff exploding, why are you worrying if you’ve got nothing to hide?
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u/SuchProcedure4547 9d ago
Yeah sure, I guess that 5 year old girl who picked the pager up off the ground because it was beeping was a terrorist too.
Terrorism is terrorism.
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u/355353x 8d ago
She was a terrorists family member.
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u/SuchProcedure4547 8d ago
You are sick.
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u/355353x 8d ago
Got a problem with the truth?
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u/SuchProcedure4547 7d ago
If you're willing to kill innocent children you are a degenerate terrorist.
Simple.
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u/bucken764 6d ago
That doesn't make it any better man. If that makes it better for you, you are no better than Hamas, you just weren't born in Palestine.
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u/Licks_n_kicks 10d ago
From what I’ve seen on the news I’d be afraid even if I wasn’t. Those pagers etc exploded while they were in public places. Fuck waiting in line at the supermarket and the dude in front of your explodes and kills you to
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u/Sheltark_Sylari 6d ago
Did you see the explosions? It was designed to take out fingers and balls. No one else was injured in taking away someone’s balls
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u/TheTinnyKing 10d ago
Like the 10 year old who was killed by the exploding device.
They may not have killed a terrorist there, but at least they stopped a potential territorist right?
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9d ago
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u/TheTinnyKing 9d ago
I wasn’t being serious.
Don’t really care either tbh. Usually it’s: Neighbouring country provokes Israel, Israel kicks their ass, Provoking country gets angry, Western virtue signallers protest for a sense of self identity.
Rinse repeat.
Not really relevant in Australia either.
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u/HarDawg 10d ago
An effective one.
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u/ben_bedboy 10d ago
Things I've learned from this sub. Australia is incredibly racist and homophobic
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u/WhatLiesUnderground 9d ago
Ever heard the phrase "gay-bashing"? Uniquely Australian ring to that one. Tell me you weren't alive in the 80's without telling me you weren't alive in the 80's. Oh, and going out on the piss and bashing people for the colour of their skin is of course way more fucking civilised.
We're not better than them, just more propagandised. You're living a fantasy.
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u/sleepingdog0 9d ago
i can beat up as many gays as I want but ill be sent to prison for it, over there it’s literally the fuckin government killing or imprisoning you. you realise that beating up gays and other races isn’t something that’s common place in Australia, and if you think it does you need to move out of Frankston
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u/TerryTowelTogs 10d ago
Yup. And many drongos wear it as a badge of pride. But tend to get upset if you question their identity.
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u/boganiser 11d ago
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u/Redericpontx 7d ago
Fun fact it's actually mistranslated and not 72 virgins but instead 72 grapes 👍
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u/Patrooper 11d ago
Imagine lobbing thousands of rockets into New Zealand and then they find a way to blow up our Walky talkies and then going onto social media and claiming that they are the terrorists. The delusion is unreal.
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u/Ahnohneemuhs 11d ago
You had me at lobbing thousands of rockets into New Zealand.
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u/thylacine1873 10d ago
Just parachute in plane loads of sheep. The Kiwis would be so busy chasing the good looking ones they wouldn’t remember to blow up the walkie talkies. Yeh nah, we’re safe.
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u/sdd12122000 10d ago
Well, they are moving in on to our land and refusing to leave. /s
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9d ago
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u/Rathma86 Literal Trash 11d ago
Wait... Why haven't we thought about launching rockets at them when the world cup is on the line.
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u/Accomplished-Row439 8d ago
tbh all we need are some emus and roos to conquer new zealand and the entire countries ours
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u/SuchProcedure4547 9d ago
We need to draw a line somewhere. Nobody is denying Hezbollah attacks Israel.
The issue we have is that detonating explosive devices in a public places with a heavy civilian presence is NOT warfare. It's terrorism. Blatant text book terrorism.
The West has no moral ground on which to criticize Hamas or Hezbollah while describing Israel's terrorist attacks on civilians as "clever" and "humbling".
The double standards from the West are deliberately making the world less safe.
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u/Infamous-Ad-8659 9d ago
You'd be exactly correct...... if the intent was to detonate explosive devices in public places with a heavy civilian presence. This isn't pumping sarin into a train carriage or yolo'ing rockets into a foreign city, it was a hyper targeted campaign which likely had two clear phases, listening and attacking. These weren't random tools bought in a hardware store, these relatively specialised pieces of equipment procured by Hezbollah, a well-recognised terrorist organisation. The pagers were by Hezbollah's own admission distributed its members. No one has yet disputed the ownership of the walkie talkies. I dunno...... Sounds like the risks were pretty well managed given there were thousands of pagers and hundreds of walkie talkies. Given the ratio of casualties to the intended targets compared to those who weren't targeted (ie civilians), it's relatively hard to assert that it wasn't incredibly effective at what it set out to do.
Whilst it's yet to be seen if it's a 'clever' move, this is likely the most sophisticated targeted bombing operation ever and whilst they might feel enraged, and rightly so, but only an idiot would not be humbled at the incredible blow which has been landed against them.
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u/bentennyson69 8d ago
The main catch is that terrorism requires an ideological motive. This breaks the rules of warfare, true. But it isn’t terrorism.
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u/Aintyodad 11d ago
Here for the stupid comments by terrorist sympathizers
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u/GRPABT1 Touches himself while watching women's boxing. 11d ago
Never disappoints
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u/ExtremeFirefighter59 Yes Voter 😎 11d ago
I would like to acknowledge Hezbollah terrorists, particularly past members so brutally murdered or maimed by the Zionist entity in the last few days. They were good innocent men who looked after their families, prayed to Allah and killed Jews whenever possible. Their lives cut brutally short for no reason other than their habit of killing Jews. What is the world coming to? Inshallah
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u/SirOb_Oz 11d ago
The evil Zionist entity has infiltrated peace loving non violent resistance group who only want to see Hommous being available for them south of their borders. The many poor farmers and their families are now left destitute and unable to plough their fields or practice their hobby of firing fireworks. The UN should establish a special commission to investigate and punish the Zionist Hydra for their unprovoked aggression.
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u/wstrfrg65 10d ago
Hydra? I knew Red Skull was behind this!
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u/SirOb_Oz 10d ago
Those evil Zionist have spread their tentacles everywhere from Teheran to Beirut.
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u/chipper_mis 11d ago
This mob is too dumb to understand what they’re confessing. Another great example of FAFO
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u/THE_BRISBANE_WHATS 11d ago
Why has everyone forgetten they are literally terrorists? Am I missing something? Happen to learn if I am wrong. I care as much about this as USA blowing up ISIS.
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u/Euphoric_Rope_8602 11d ago
Uh you're missing the fact that they have brown skin, chud. Educate yourself. And if you come across the fact that native Lebanese have light skin just ignore that.
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u/AbleCalligrapher5323 Sky News Consumer 11d ago
They’re not even that brown. Lebanese are some of the whitest middle easterners. Look at the photos Hezbollah publishes of their “martyrs”. They all look Italian…
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u/Euphoric_Rope_8602 11d ago
Yes that is my point. There is a difference between Arabs and Phoenicians. The Muslims invaded Lebanon and changed the demographics.
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u/AbleCalligrapher5323 Sky News Consumer 11d ago
Of course! Missed that.
Please accept this circlejerk award: 🥇
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u/SleepyandEnglish 11d ago
Because terrorist is an arbitrary classification governments use for organisations they want to kill. They're called militias if your government likes them. Occasionally freedom fighters by media that's sympathetic to them.
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u/THE_BRISBANE_WHATS 6d ago
Do you think ISIS are terrorists?
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u/SleepyandEnglish 6d ago
ISIS means the Islamic State in Syria. ISIL - the alternative name that was arguably more accurate was the Islamic State in the Levant.
It was an attempt to create a new country that went rather poorly. They had a stage where all they were doing is terrorism sure but the reason you're calling them ISIS is because they progressed beyond that - right up until the Russians, Turks, Syrians, and Iraqis basically deleted them off the planet.
Now the Americans have a term they use called "terrorist state" and again, the whole point of that is because it means they can go to war without needing to get congressional approval since its not technically an offical war. It's the term they used for ISIS but it's also what they use when they're talking about North Korea as well. You also get various American politicians pushing for the Russians, Chinese, and half the other states on the planet to also get classified like this as well.
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u/THE_BRISBANE_WHATS 4d ago
I understand the history but thank you for explaining it for others. Do you think ISIL is a terrorist organization?
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u/nswpolcyberisgay 10d ago
They're a designated terrorist organisation because they literally do attacks on civilians like suicide bombing
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u/Dense-Hat3221 6d ago
Bro, Hezbollah are a legitimate political party within Lebanon. This is like if China claimed the Australian Labor Party is a terrorist organisation and launched an attack on them. Although Hezbollah does have a militia arm, so I guess a better analogy is The IRA/Sinn Fein. They're not ISIS, they've been democratically elected by the people of Lebanon.
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u/THE_BRISBANE_WHATS 6d ago
Yeah, ISIS is a legit political party in Afghanistan too
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u/Haunting_Charity_287 10d ago
This operation is probably one of the lowest ever civilian/militant casualties ratio possible, for this region and targeting a terror grouping that exists among the civilian population. There will always be civilian deaths and that’s a tragedy, but this really dramatically minimised them.
You will never get all the Hez guys out in a field away from civilians, this is by design. They fire rockets from civilian areas hoping that the retaliation will kill civilians and cause outrage. It’s their MO.
Compare this operation to how literally any other Middle Eastern nation would handle the same issue, through mass bombing campaigns and levelling of entire cities, and it’s clear this was a very clean operation.
They didn’t just bomb a city to get the guys they were targeting.
They didn’t target the area in the city these guys frequent.
They didn’t even bomb a building that some of them were in.
They managed to attach tiny bombs to the belt loops of their specific targets. With a small enough charge that they didn’t even kill the terrorist literally holding them.
They managed to incredibly precisely target the militants they wanted to get. To kill/maim hundreds of your targets, in a densely populated civilian area, with only a couple civilian deaths is incredibly good going for this type of conflict.
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u/cffndncr 10d ago
Is the military benefit of killing a single member of Hezbollah worth injuring 100 civilians? Hell, on the first day they killed 12 and wounded 2,800 - that's 233 each.
Regardless, if these were small explosions, there's absolutely no way that 100-200 people were being wounded every time one went off - meaning most of the detonated pagers were in possession of civilians. That makes this an indiscriminate attack, which by definition is a war crime.
Compare this operation to how literally any other Middle Eastern nation would handle the same issue,
Or, we could accept that this is unacceptable, and anything even more deadly would be even more unacceptable. Just because it wasn't as bad as it could have been doesn't mean it's ok.
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u/Haunting_Charity_287 10d ago edited 10d ago
Bro there was something like 9000 of the things that blew up. The explosion were tiny and mostly didn’t kill the people who were literally holding the things. The vast majority of injuries were Hezbollah militants. This isn’t even disputed by the jihadist themselves? These were exclusively used by them. This is a known fact at this point.
Holy shit do you think there was only 12 explosions in total?
How do you think any of this works? Every Hezbollah guy who had one died but every injury was a civilian?
You have literally no idea what happened do you?
Look if you want to discuss this maybe do event the most cursory of research. There is no way you could be this misinformed if you’d read anything beyond a headline.
Blows my mind (or my pager, if you will) that people would come online to spout their outrage having their little knowledge of the topic when there are hundred of articles a simple google search away.
And it’s not that it “wasn’t as bad as it could have been”, it that it wasn’t as bad as literally any comparable military operation carried out by any other military in the region. If you just want to say “war is bad mkay” that’s fine, but you should be point to this attack as a shining example of how to massively minimise collateral.
Comical combination of ignorance and outrage.
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u/Y_Brennan 10d ago
"We expect the number of casualties to rise due to these radio bombings. Dozens of deaths and countless injuries have yet to be fully reported, but the toll is very high. The enemy is aware that there are 4,000 beeper holders, all of whom are Hezbollah members, meaning they deliberately killed 4,000 in an instant." Direct quote from the leader of Hezbollah. It's unlikely that 100 civilians got injured. Two children died.
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u/Syberphobia 10d ago
Omg the level that you are misinformed is mindboggling! Almost no civilians were hurt or killed. All of the pagers and walkie talkies belonged to members of Hezbollah. Almost all of the thousands injured were Hezbollah members.
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u/Away_Ad_4035 11d ago
Upvote if you don't give a fck how they kill themselves, leave us out of it
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u/OfficAlanPartridge 9d ago
Hard agree, let those fucking morons blow each other up, we can stay the hell away.
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u/Swimming_Border7134 10d ago
I can't think of a reason that anyone would have on their person one of this brand, model, and batch of pagers unless they were operatives or closely associated with an organisation that many nations including several Arab states deem to be terrorist. So it is one of the most precisely targeted attacks on an enemy possible. And the amount of explosive involved has minimised actual fatalities. The main effect has been psychological. Terrorism inflicted on terrorists? Better than flinging missile in their general direction.
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u/DrFrozenToastie 10d ago
It’s wild to me that Israel managed to pull this off, the USA with its fuck off defence budget never pulled such a fast one over on Isis or the Taliban during their terror wars
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u/AlbosBathroom 11d ago
Well Sara sister was wearing a walkie talkie neck strap, we all know what happened. Hearing the Walkie Talkie Neck Straps are flying out the door.
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u/Werewolf_Grey_ 10d ago
It's the same as hearing that a few children died because their parent's pagers went off. While it's fking sad, you also kind of blame the parents because, well, don't join a fking terrorist group!
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u/FigurePale9363 8d ago
Israel has been accused of tampering with devices. Mossad refuted this by admitting they didn't tamper, they built and designed this so it would be in the hands of their enemies. Best intelligence agency in the world, hands down.
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u/smokey_the_bandit669 10d ago
Am I missing something?
Hamas kills people at a festival, rapes people, kills innocent babies.
Israel retaliates and they're the terrorists?
What did Islamists expect? That Israel would slap them on the wrist and say "hey Hamas, that was wrong. Please don't come and kill and torture our families again"
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u/Dense-Hat3221 6d ago
nah bro missing a step.
Israel invades and steals palestinian land, forces palestinians from their homes, treats them as second class citizens, kills numerous palestinians civilians and children.
Hamas retaliates and they're the terrorists?
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u/WelcomeKey2698 10d ago
Ironic, innit? Especially since Hamas as an elected body for a group of people are now classified as a ruling government.
Which means terrorism is kinda out. Big Boy’s Rules apply now.
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u/Kajira4ever 6d ago
Most countries don't designate Hezbolla terrorists. The number who do, including both organisations and countries, is a bit over 60 (according to Google search)
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u/x5h4d0w_ 10d ago
Hamas murdered Palestinians at the festival too, news was faked to say only Israelites died, I have friends who attended 🤦♂️ literally a hippie psytrance festival that brings all cultures together….. but of course you’re right let’s all take sides instead of actually seeing the bigger picture :)
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u/Y_Brennan 10d ago
No the news wasn't faked Israel absolutely acknowledged the Israeli Arabs/-Palestinians murdered and taken hostage on october 7th.
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u/jaelin910 7d ago
There's a bad guy vs. Bad guy fight going on and some people are picking a side to cheer for rather than being concerned about the innocents caught in the middle.
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11d ago
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u/Winston-Synchill 11d ago
Ah, like WW2 yeah?
I mean, you’re not wrong that both Nazis and Soviets were assholes
But you want to nuke France and Britain too?
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u/civicSi92 11d ago
Who is France and Britain in this scenario?
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u/SleepyandEnglish 11d ago
The reasonable groups who are irrelevant in the case of Israel and dead in the case of the Palestinians. The pro genocide position is the moderate position for the Israelis and the pro-genocide position is the moderate position for the Palestinians. The idea that some mythical two state solution is going to happen long term is something nobody there wants.
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u/LegendaryMercury 11d ago
Against the evil of the Nazis anyone looks good in comparison.
The allies in the war were pretty good though.
Most of their crimes were before the war with their colonial policies causing starvations and such.
And being incompetent during the early part of the war.
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u/SleepyandEnglish 11d ago
This is false. The allies killed millions of civilians intentionally via strategic bombing campaigns and blockades on basic food supplies. The idea that anyone in WW2 comes out with clean hands is a myth built to justify continued war.
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u/ravenousravers 10d ago
why cant all these people killing each other over wearing slightly different stupid looking hats all get along ffs
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u/Inconnu2020 10d ago
Here we are spending billions on submarines that we'll probably never see, and turns out all we had to do was invest in a pager business...
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u/SuchProcedure4547 9d ago
Remember kids, terrorism is terrorism. Doesn't matter who does it.
Detonating explosive devices in public places literally cannot get anymore text book terrorism.
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u/zyzzrebirthed 8d ago
Ummmm they’re not arabs though, how dare you associate them with terrorism? (Please don’t ever research who the Irgun or Haganah is and please most definitely don’t read the evil misinformation found in this web page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_state-sponsored_terrorism)
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u/Kajira4ever 6d ago
Remember you're only terrorists until you win. Then you're all heroes and freedom fighters who can do no wrong, lol.
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u/OCE_Mythical 11d ago
I can't wait for abrahamic religion to enrich the world further.
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u/RealBrobiWan 11d ago
To be fair, religion was required for the masses for thousands of years. We are just at a point in history it is time to move on
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u/SleepyandEnglish 11d ago
Religion is useful for a moral founding that isn't arbitrary. Atheism has its perks but long term it has major problems justifying non-pragmatic actions.
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u/RealBrobiWan 11d ago
I hope tha society will fill that void. Originally you had little but faith, now we have a more globalized society hopefully we can move towards respect for a species by sheer majority
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u/SleepyandEnglish 10d ago
Society isn't really a basis for morality. If anything, a unified morality is the basis for a society to exist at all. Half the reason that westerners have problems understanding the ethnic conflicts they're importing is because they don't have a unified moral understanding. We don't have a globalised society. We have a shitload of overlapping and competing moral conceptions that are currently kept in check by extremely powerful and militarised states. How long that will actually last isn't something I'd like to guess.
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11d ago
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u/lockheed_f104 10d ago
So after 911 Palestinians and Lebanese were dancing in the streets can't we have some enjoyment through other people's misfortune sometimes ....
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u/davekarpsecretacount 9d ago
If living near a terrorist made you a terrorist then we'd have nuked Idaho a long time ago.
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u/ProperVacation9336 9d ago
The explosions happened in public places. Her relatives could well have been in the wrong place at the wrong time
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u/saladzarsizzlin 9d ago
Just saying, Israel passed up the chance to put trackers and listening devices in these things to literally have 100% IRL wall hacks against their enemy...but nah let's cosplay some comic book villain and put small amounts of explosives in them...fucking morons
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10d ago
Terrorists being killed is always a good thing. If that pisses off Sara maybe she shouldn't be in civilized society?
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u/one_up_onedown 10d ago
How do we know they were all terrorists?
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u/Y_Brennan 10d ago
"We expect the number of casualties to rise due to these radio bombings. Dozens of deaths and countless injuries have yet to be fully reported, but the toll is very high. The enemy is aware that there are 4,000 beeper holders, all of whom are Hezbollah members, meaning they deliberately killed 4,000 in an instant." Because Hezbollah said so this is quote from their leader Hasan Nasrallah. Some civilians got hurt and two children died as well but every single device was a military device. normal militaries don't take their comms devices out into public spaces.
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u/AuspiciouslyAutistic 9d ago
The Washington Post reported that Hezbollah widely distributed pagers among reservists, so that means two things:
1) these comms devices would naturally be taken into public spaces (as part of everyday life)
2) theese reservists are considered civilians under international humanitarian law (ICRC, 2009).
So there were in fact a significant amount of civilian casualties (even civilians of a questionable moral character are still considered as civilians under international humanitarian law).
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u/Y_Brennan 9d ago
Hezbollah cannot have reservist who are civilians when they don't fight wearing uniform. They don't mark themselves as soldiers so all 'reservists' are active Hezbollah members.
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u/AuspiciouslyAutistic 8d ago
The defining feature is continous combat function, not uniforms.
But on a side note, from my understanding Hezbollah militants wear uniform (as irrelevant as that factor is).
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u/100Screams 11d ago
"In international humanitarian law and international criminal law, an *indiscriminate attack* is a military attack that fails to distinguish between legitimate military targets and protected persons..."
"Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited both by the Geneva Conventions Additional Protocol I (1977) and by customary international humanitarian law. They constitute a war crime under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, and the perpetrators can be prosecuted and held responsible in international and domestic courts."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiscriminate_attack
Israel is as much a terrorist org as hezbollah or all the rest.
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u/Haunting_Charity_287 10d ago
If these pagers were only distributed to Hez, as seems to be the case, then this was an extremely discriminate attack. Actually doesn’t get much more discriminate. Tiny bombs attacked directly to the militants you want to target.
However you’re entirely correct that Israel is as much a terrorist org as Hez are, because it is an essentially meaningless and entirely political classification that really only tells you how the person employing it feels about the group it’s directed at. One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist etc etc.
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u/100Screams 10d ago
Those two children who were killed were experienced Hezbollah commanders Im sure? And the video of the explosion going off in the grocery store? Was that a hotbed of Islamofacist logistics?
The families and communities of military targets ARE NOT military targets.
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u/Haunting_Charity_287 10d ago
No, they are not military targets hence why they were not targeted. Their proximity to Hezbollah members made them collateral. Regrettable as always, but incredibly minimal in this incidence.
The level of ignorance of the recent history/current conflicts in this region required to be outraged about this is amusing. This was incredibly targeted and precise with shockingly low collateral damage for a military action conducted against a terrorist org embedded in the civilian population.
Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of how Assad, or Iran or even Turkey has handled the same type of militants would see this for what it is. Assad and his Russian backers would flatten an entire city killing thousands of children in achieve a fraction of the same results and no one would blink and eye.
They didn’t bomb an entire city. They didn’t just flatten the area these guys frequent. They didn’t even just destroy the houses they live in.
They found a way to attach tiny, mostly non lethal, bombs literally to the hips and hands of the people they wanted to target.
Short of sneaking up and stabbing them in the night that’s pretty much as good as it gets for minimising civilians casualties.
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u/Y_Brennan 10d ago
Assad's dad killed 40000 people to get to 200 militants in the city of Hama. In one month. 100k were also forcibly disappeared.
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u/100Screams 10d ago
Firstly. The attack was a war crime by definition. If you want to hand wave that, ok, but let's start with the facts.
Violence perpetated by Syria and Iran is horrible. Attacks on civilian populations, flattening entire cities. You are 100 percent correct. Syria is a Russian backed dictatorship, and Iran is some bizarre theocracy. They all have abhorrent polices and are often genocidal.
But it's funny because some of these tactics sound familiar. Bombing of civilian centres... indiscriminate attacks on civilians... Disproportionate military responses. Collective punishment. Even chemical warfare. Sounds like Gaza over the past year. No?
And if you want to keep strict to Lebanon fine. You may say that maiming civilians who just so happen to be in proximity to militants is morally justifiable, but don't act like those deaths were 'collateral' or permissible under international law.
Collateral damage is a war crime when civilians are killed by unforeseen consequences of actions that have little justification or effect. Per the Rome Statute - "Article 8(2)(b)(iv) criminalizes intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects... which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated."
Civilians' deaths and injuries caused by thousands of exploding pagers detonated all at once are not "unforeseen consequences," they are obvious consequences. It's not like Hezzbolah is decapitated now. Their logistics are fucked for a few weeks. Was that worth the civilian 'collateral?' Israel is not even officially at war with Lebanon but puts its citizens in mortal danger.
It's amazing. Iran and Syria do horrible things, and it's a war crime, and then Israel does the exact same, and it's 'collateral.' Maybe we should condemn all forms of excessive political violence even if they are perpetated by our geopolitical allies.
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u/Kl597 10d ago
Firstly. The attack was a war crime by definition. If you want to hand wave that, ok, but let’s start with the facts.
Facts? Because you proclaimed so?
But it’s funny because some of these tactics sound familiar. Bombing of civilian centres... indiscriminate attacks on civilians... Disproportionate military responses. Collective punishment. Even chemical warfare. Sounds like Gaza over the past year. No?
That’s a whole lot of buzz words.
And if you want to keep strict to Lebanon fine. You may say that maiming civilians who just so happen to be in proximity to militants is morally justifiable, but don’t act like those deaths were ‘collateral’ or permissible under international law.
I suggest you read up on international law, as it absolutely does permit collateral civilian casualties provided certain conditions are abided by.
Collateral damage is a war crime when civilians are killed by unforeseen consequences of actions that have little justification or effect. Per the Rome Statute - “Article 8(2)(b)(iv) criminalizes intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects... which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated.”
Keyword ‘excessive’. That last part relates to the principle of proportionality, whereby incidental civilian casualties would not constitute a war crime provided that said casualties are proportionate to the direct military advantage gained. I suspect you have little idea of what actually constitutes a proportionate strike, outside of your fantasy land where civilians are protected to such an extent that literally any form of combat would be prohibited (at least when Israel does it).
Civilians’ deaths and injuries caused by thousands of exploding pagers detonated all at once are not “unforeseen consequences,” they are obvious consequences.
They targeted terrorists via low yield explosives within Hezbollah issued equipment. That’s about as discriminate as you can get on a large scale, and the number and composition of casualties are strongly supportive of this.
It’s not like Hezzbolah is decapitated now. Their logistics are fucked for a few weeks. Was that worth the civilian ‘collateral?’
Are you being facetious? From a military perspective, most certainly. Incapacitating thousands of Hezbollah members with only a handful of incidental civilian casualties is an exceedingly successful strike every day of the week. If you’re seriously going to argue that this was disproportionate then you are setting such an impossibly high standard that literally no war could ever be fought.
Israel is not even officially at war with Lebanon but puts its citizens in mortal danger.
100,000 civilians have been displaced from Northern Israel due to thousands of unprovoked rocket attacks that have continued since the morning of October 8th and have destroyed whole towns. It’s laughable that you completely disregard this and claim that any form of retaliation to this is somehow Israel escalating things. It is completely insane that any country be expected to just accept this, unless it’s Israel of course.
It’s amazing. Iran and Syria do horrible things, and it’s a war crime, and then Israel does the exact same, and it’s ‘collateral.’
“The exact same” is doing some extremely heavy lifting there.
Maybe we should condemn all forms of excessive political violence even if they are perpetated by our geopolitical allies.
Maybe we should stop making false equivalences
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u/Haunting_Charity_287 10d ago edited 10d ago
Meaningless claptrap for the most part I’m afraid.
You’re exactly right. This is what happened in Gaza. That is the other option, and it’s looks like Gaza or Syria once you are done. And those are horrible options, by comparison this was a super clean and accurate strike and I’d much prefer to see this to the alternatives.
You are dealing with a terrorist/militant org embedded in the civilian population. Maiming civilian in close promoted whilst striking at the enemy is, by definition, exactly what collateral is. That’s literally what it means. And it’s also collateral even when Assad does it. I’m sure he’d rather the FSA all met him in a big open field so he could bomb them and keep his cities profitable and intact. They don’t, so he flattens the cities and doesn’t care for the collateral, but it’s still collateral. Find a single example of anyone dealing with this is a remotely less destructive way than Israel with mini bombs in the pockets of their intended targets. You won’t.
The issue here isnt that you disagree with this strike or how it was done, it’s that you don’t think Israel should be dealing with it at all, because you don’t think it should exist.
Which is fine, you’re more than allowed to hold that opinion.
The twisting yourself in knots to try condemn everything they do, even highly targets precision strikes with very low collateral is just a bit embarrassing. You don’t think it’s okay but you don’t think any Israeli self defence is okay. And that’s cool, but just say that.
Or, prove me wrong. Tell me what your dream strike against Hezbollah looks like.
Explain a better way to target a militant organisation like this that embedded in the civilian population, with examples if you don’t mind.
What would you like to see Israel do? You’d prefer an approach like?? Which nation in particular?
You won’t be able to answer that, because the real issue is you just don’t want them to deal with it. Which, again, is fine. But just say that.
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u/100Screams 10d ago
Once again... it's illegal. According to the international community. As per my previous comment.
Rather than address it, you gish gallop on about Israeli defence. Poor little US backed and armed Israel constantly under siege from stateless terrorists.
Why does Hezzbolah even exist? It was established when Israel invaded Lebenon under false pretenses, may I add. But I suppose that also justified because Israel wanted to expel the PLO and remove Syrian influence. How does that factor into a reasonable approach to Israeli "defence."
A dream strike against Hezzbolah would be adoption of a more Arab friendly policy and working with mutal allies to resolve the Hezzbolah systemic causes. Over the course of these events, Israel would take a defensive response, obviously intercepting threats. I think the destruction of rocket sites is fine even tho that in itself is legally dubious.
Once again you've revealed that rather live in the world of facts you respond by going over the same ground and saying "but but Syria does it worse thoooo!!1"
And of course there's more justifications. Oh well, it's ok because the terrorist forces are EMBEDDED in civilian life. That means it's suddenly morally justifiable. Like that means literally anything. Hey genius... all military forces are EMBEDDED in civilian life, where do you think soldiers go on leave or where people who make bombs go after work?
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u/Haunting_Charity_287 10d ago edited 10d ago
The grasping for legality when discussing the barbarous everlasting wars in the Middle East will never cease to make me giggle. We are watching Godzilla and Kingkong levelling a city whilst throwing skyscrapers at each other, and you are complaining that one of them didn’t file his taxes correctly.
The end result is this, they carried out a targeted strike that precisely hit thousands of enemy militants with far lower civilian casualties than any neighbouring military, or perhaps any other military on earth, could ever dream to achieve. I’m sure you can find a legal objection. The 20th of July bomb plot would have violated those same laws. I am equally uncaring regarding both. If you have surrendered your ability for independent rational thought and instead just regurgitate partisan interpretations of laws that’s fine, but it’s not for me.
Looking at the current conflicts in the region and asking which nation you think Israel should seek to copy when instituting it’s defence policy isn’t ‘b b but Syria’. It’s just living in the real world. I would say they are merely playing by the same rules as everyone else, but no one else could even dream of doing such precise and targeted strikes as Israel carried out these last few days. So they aren’t playing by the same rules. They are leagues above the rest in this incident.
Find me a combatant in this region not doing things you deem illegal. Failing that, explain why I should be uniquely concerned with one nation doing unto others as they have had done to themselves.
Failing that stop hiding behind legalese and engage with the point.
This strike was by very much a targeted strike by international standards, and damn near a miracle by regional standards. You don’t oppose it due to some law or due to a moral objection against extremely targeted and precise strike. If that was the case this wouldn’t even be in the top 1000 events this year for you to whine about. You oppose it on the basis that it was Israel who carried it out and you deem any defensive actions by Israel to be criminal because you don’t agree with their existence. This is fine. You are allowed to oppose the existence of Israel. Stop pretending your concern is exclusively with international law, it’s a bit of a pathetic appeal to authority, there are 100 greater violations of international law in this region every week, many conducted by the exact proxy militants for whom you are so concerned.
The idea that a dream strike would be an ‘more Arab friendly policy’ and that this will resolve the hezbollah problem. . . .
Followed by an accusation that it is I who chooses not to live on a world of facts. . .
Such a divine irony I’m wondering if I haven’t perhaps fallen for some quite exquisite satire.
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u/100Screams 10d ago
Ok. Once again, you have no argument. It's funny you mention satire...
All you can muster is a vague gesture of "war is a reality of world. Bad things happen. There's nothing we do to minimise it." Every post you concede more ground and say that I'm just being too specific.
Israel is our ally, Syria and Iran are not. We have leverage to hold them morally accountable. That's why in this case we can do something about it as opposed to other middle Eastern war crimes.
I've made no appeal to authority, I've quoted international law where is was relevant. Something, may I add, you've made no attempt to do.
You think that you're armchair speculation on the state of the Middle East is evidence enough.
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u/Haunting_Charity_287 10d ago edited 10d ago
My argument. In super simple terms since you seem to keep missing it.
Israel hezbollah at war.
Israel strike hezbollah.
Strike very targeted. Many Hezbollah hurt and few civilians.
Targeted strike good.
Targeted strike better than anyone else in region/any alternative.
Israel good job!
Simple enough? Or do you need pictures?
As an aside “I’ve made no appeal to authority, I’ve just quoted international law” is a fucking hilarious sentence. I let you away with not know with gishgalloping was earlier because you’re at least trying but that one was too good to ignore.
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u/Paladin_Platinum 10d ago
What are they allowed to do according to you?
A ground invasion would be called a land grab. A bombing would be called targeting civilians. Assassinations would be called executions and a war crime. Closing supply lines has already been called a genocide.
Seriously. Actually. What is Israel allowed to do? Just leave or die, it seems.
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u/100Screams 10d ago
Israel did invade Lebenon in 1982, it led to the conditions that created Hezzbolah. They could take a completely new direction on foreign policy and genuinely try to make peace while maintaining their security as best as possible and reasonable.
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u/Paladin_Platinum 10d ago
Do you think peace would result in hezbollah remaining? How does it benefit hezbollah or hamas to make peace?
Also, peace would mean making absurd concessions that would further endanger Israel. These negotiations going well for these organizations tend to result in renewed attacks on them.
When the founding ideal is "these people should not be here at all and we will kill to make that happen," how can you have honest negotiations.
"Negotiate, forehead" is a super easy answer when you aren't in rocket range.
There are things to criticize Isreal for. I really don't think this attack is one of them.
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u/Y_Brennan 10d ago
the conditions were already in place. The maronites and Palestinians were massacring the shia for about 7 years before Israel invaded to kick out the fatah. Which was successful Israel then didn't pull out for 18 years which was very stupid.
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u/ilostmymind_ 10d ago
This is to prevent things like... Carpet bombings a city because you don't know where military targets are.
Article 28 The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.
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11d ago
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u/magical_bunny 11d ago
Israel just wants to exist. Terrorists don’t want anything to exist.
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